"Integrated" Bullshit

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Yes I think its ok, I dont do anything but play pong anyway, they can bend me over all they want as long as pong works.

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Man and I thought I might get lucky and be the first smart ass.

But setting that thought aside, I totally agree with you people about the fact that integrated hardcare can be a real pain in the ass. I liked the good old days when integrated stuff first came out, because typically you could turn it off in BIOS, these days you are just screwed. I have the same horror stories with trying to upgrade a Compaq computer I have. They aren't special computers, but I wanted to turn it into a dedicated gaming server which didn't need to have much special hardware to it besides a 32MB video card, which I thought I could just throw in a PCI GeForce something or other. Man did that and BAM, computer won't boot until I remove the card. No option to turn the onboard stuff off, nothing, and it won't let me use anything I added. Bastards, I think personally that is BS. Then again maybe that's why they are putting the prices of the computers down these days. Becuase you can't upgrade them, they are perfect just for people who want to sit and use them for web surfing and writting papers... maybe even a little light gaming or something. Who knows...

Just my 2 cents...
~AciD

Well Gore, there are two sides to this coin. As a system builder, I make the integration choice for my customers based on two criteria...their level of knowledge AND their potential to learn. For the smart ones who are trying to save some bucks, I'll order an "integrated" board with plenty of expansion room so they won't be bitching when they crack open the case. I also make sure a tag with my phone number is on the inside of the case cause 9 times out of 10 they are gonna call me with BIOS questions. If they are prepared to go all out on the initial build, then screw the integration...who needs low quality redundancy, right?

On the other hand you have folks like my 70 yr. old mother who wants a computer to surf, email and play solitaire. I don't see her playing Unreal Tournament or wanting to crank up any AC/DC, so a basic integrated board works fine for her and those of a similar computing disposition. Same story holds true for the office machines I deal with....none of the rich doctors or lawyers want killer systems built for their networks UNLESS it's the one that goes in THEIR office...in which case they usually want it built to the gills.

I guess I can sum it up by saying that integrated systems are a godsend for my (cheap-assed) idiot customers (no Mom, I'm not talking about you), but totally useless for power users like yourself.

Wow, what a great thread!

allenb1963 - As usual, I can't help but echo your sentiments.

I started my computer experience with a VA-503+ motherboard running Windows 95. The system had been 'rescued' by a friend from an idiot who tried to use it as a wall mural. He took it to a local shop, where the resident 'guru' opened it up, swapped out the parts he wanted with crap (can you say Winmodem?), reloaded just enough of the 95 OS so my friend could play games and charged him $100.00+. When my friend got tired of it, he offered to sell it to me and I jumped at the chance (duhhhh!). The only exposure I had with computers up to that point was at work (proprietary company software, a little hardware - no Internet access). I learned the hard way about computer hardware and software . . . compatibility issues, searching for drivers for parts that were no longer part of a system and trying to figure out why they wouldn't work, working with an OS that wasn't even a full OEM install . . . Anyway, I could have used an integrated system back then!

IMHO integrated boards have their place. For the home user with little to no experience, who doesn't want to spend or can't afford a lot of money, isn't looking for the biggest and brightest and can't be bothered learning about hardware, let alone software . . . that's the way to go. (Isn't that why most systems come preloaded with Windows?) Companies who use their IT personnel as general jack/jills of all computer trades, are better off with integrated or proprietary systems where an upgrade is 'adding more RAM' . . . as opposed to improving video or sound quality - so employees can play the newest games on company time. For the 'power' user with specific needs, whether it's gaming, graphics, web site hosting, power-hungry program applications - an integrated system probably won't be their first choice.

As consumers, we have a responsiblity to ensure we get our moneys worth - investing a little time deciding what we need and finding the best place to get it shouldn't be too much to ask of ourselves. Most computer salespeople PUSH the products managers tell them to and know very little about the systems themselves . . . some can spout off answers to generic FAQs but little else. If we lived in a perfect world, people would actually know more than the bare minimum for their jobs and . . . pigs would fly . . . .

Gore - While I can sympathize, I don't agree that every computer user needs "real" parts - mainly because they wouldn't know what to do with them. I DO agree that computer companies need to supply users with complete descriptions of the systems they sell and, just as important, should insist their employees understand the capabilities of the products they sell so they can provide full customer service. If you want to try a real nightmare system, upgrade an older e-machine (can you speak Korean?) or better yet a Compaq (man I hate pop rivets!). You may hate integrated systems, but I'd take one any day over a proprietary one.

I'm glad you were able to reconcile your nVidia card problem. It's trite but, you've learned all computer systems are NOT created equal and will know what to look for or at least question, next time around. Starting this thread probably opened other eyes as well. Thanks.

V.

Gore:

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A REAL NIC is only like 10 dollars, a Sound Blaster card is about 70 dollars and I paid 50 for the Vid Card....... $130.00 is a huge savings? I don't think so man.

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Just to clarify - keep in mind, as I mentioned this was bought at the time before GeForce2 cards came out (or were just coming out)....

So I'm talking a $10 NIC, a $70 Sound Card, and a about $170 video card (which is what the best of the GeForce cards costed at the time and more like $250 for a GeForce 2 if they were out yet)...

So thats between $250 and $330 of savings per system (assuming GeForce2 wasn't out - then lets look at the $250).

$250 x 2 = $500, which is most of the cost of a computer when you consider I wasn't buying new monitors (already have 2 - 21" displays at home)...

RRP

=o

If you have two 21 incher, why do you care about cost anyway? Lol. ANyway, I just had to rant because it pissed me off that they do this. Maybe a home user who thinks there OS is Word or something would be ok with integrated. But not me.

If any of you had half a clue, you would know that you can dissable all onboard hardware via jumpers (which most of you are to young to know what a jumper is) or via the BIOS.

Then if you're not a moron like gore, you can buy the correct card for the correct slot and upgrade without any problems. Or you can bite the bullet and pay a REAL professional to do the work.

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Originally posted here by 2pumpChump
If any of you had half a clue, you would know that you can dissable all onboard hardware via jumpers (which most of you are to young to know what a jumper is) or via the BIOS.

Then if you're not a moron like gore, you can buy the correct card for the correct slot and upgrade without any problems. Or you can bite the bullet and pay a REAL professional to do the work.

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I'm a moron? I already said the computer ****ing supported AGP AND PCI. I couldv used that card but I didnt want to use PCI so I took it back and got an AGP. And I did disable the thing in BIOS, just because I'm young doesnt mean I dont know that ****. I do know my computer history, how else would someone who has only had a computer for 4 years now (me) be able to say theyh ave used CP/M?

Being a moron and wanting a different and better card are two different things. And as Iv said about 600 times now, Im new to hardware, my area is in Oss and securing them.

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If any of you had half a clue, you would know that you can dissable all onboard hardware via jumpers (which most of you are to young to know what a jumper is) or via the BIOS.

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Well I hate to tell you 2pumpChump, but you're wrong. I have the Compaq computer sitting right here. There is no AGP slot for an additional graphics card, only 4 PCI slots. There are no jumpers for disabling anything that is onboard, and if you've used a Compaq before you know there is BS in the BIOS. So if you don't believe me go get yourself a Compaq Persario 5000 from about 2 years ago.

Companies don't have to make hardware upgradable or able to play with other cards put in. There are no rules like that in the computer realm.

~AciD

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Originally posted here by gore
This is a complete rant about "Integrated" hardware componants. Most new PCs you buy right now, come with integrated sound cards, modems, Video Cards, and NICs......Where was I when they all decided that you cant ever upgrade because you dont need too? I bought an Nvidia E-GEFORCE 2 MX 400 Video card today with 64 MBs, I pop the case off and SUPRISE! The slot for graphics upgrades doesnt fit for the card. Its too small.

I'm kind of new to adding hardware outside of RAM so is this something I shouldv know wouldnt work? Or should companies that make PCs actually use REAL ****ing parts? How many fo you have had this problem?

If the damn Video card was REAL and not using MY RAM I wouldnt have had this problem to begin with. Linux can use the integrated Video Card and NIC but I cant use 3d with it, it says it is impossible.

I did buy an extra NIC because I knew THAT was integrated....Didnt think they did it to the Video Card too though :(

What are your thougths on this? I think its complete and total bullshit! Who the hell wants integrated parts? Excuse me I PAID FOR IT AND I WANT REAL PARTS.

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ahum... I'm saying something similar like AllenB
It all depends for who and what the box is going to do. If I want a new box or part I make sure that all components are compatible with Linux.

Excuse me Gore, but I have a few remarks, probably they are all already adressed above, see them as a resume:

First, Before you purchase parts at least check if they are going to fit. In other words... you have an internet connection, google for it and read some specs and reviews. "I pop the case off and SUPRISE! The slot for graphics upgrades doesnt fit for the card. Its too small." You should have known that.

Second, you say you 'paid for it', wrong again, if you purchase all those parts separatly it costed you more than a single mobo with all integrated.

Third, if you purchase a mobo the specs cleary say what comes with it. So an Nvidia IGP means: an Nvidia integrated graphic processor. You should now that it is going to use the ram for vram.

Fourth, all integrated stuff reduces the hasle to put it all together. A little history: try to built a 80286 or 80386 computer with working hdd's, fdd, mouse, modem, sound, scanner,... and you will know what I mean. Believe me the standards today are a lot better and more 'standard' than the so called standards 10 to 15 years ago. A while ago you even had to buy a separate IDE or SCSI controller to get your disks to work. Your mobo was only a mobo with some ISA slots and a keyboard, speaker, reset and turbo connector... IRQ's in BIOS settings... nah dirty jumpers... overclocking in BIOS??? huh? solder a new oscillator on your board to increase the FSB.

Anyway you are right at one point, I don't realy like the integration of to many parts either. USB, Firewire, RAID, S-ATA, possibly LAN if it's Realtek, that's ok. But VGA bleh... those IGP things are always performing less than a seperata card, unless you only use your box for internet and wordprocessing. So Gore if someone want's to make a box for his/her grandma then such integrated parts are ok.

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If you have two 21 incher, why do you care about cost anyway? Lol.

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Just to clarify, since you asked...

Because the 21" monitors were bought yrs ago (seperatly) - 1 when I was still in college living with the folks and had no real bills yet, the other at about the same time that I moved in with my lady-friend - again still not having any real bills yet.

The 2 new computers were bought to replace those old Pentium 166mhz and 200mhz systems we were using still, and at the time was in middle of planning and paying for mine and that lady-friends wedding. (Her dad wouldn't foot the bill), so money was much tighter at that time...


Keep in mind also - integrated sound and NIC, while not saving alot of money up front, allows you to have multiple more open PCI slots. Allowing a smaller tower to be purchased with just as much room for additions (saving a little more money for those of us whom like room to grow)...


RRP