"Integrated" Bullshit

This is a complete rant about "Integrated" hardware componants. Most new PCs you buy right now, come with integrated sound cards, modems, Video Cards, and NICs......Where was I when they all decided that you cant ever upgrade because you dont need too? I bought an Nvidia E-GEFORCE 2 MX 400 Video card today with 64 MBs, I pop the case off and SUPRISE! The slot for graphics upgrades doesnt fit for the card. Its too small.

I'm kind of new to adding hardware outside of RAM so is this something I shouldv know wouldnt work? Or should companies that make PCs actually use REAL ****ing parts? How many fo you have had this problem?

If the damn Video card was REAL and not using MY RAM I wouldnt have had this problem to begin with. Linux can use the integrated Video Card and NIC but I cant use 3d with it, it says it is impossible.

I did buy an extra NIC because I knew THAT was integrated....Didnt think they did it to the Video Card too though :(

What are your thougths on this? I think its complete and total bullshit! Who the hell wants integrated parts? Excuse me I PAID FOR IT AND I WANT REAL PARTS.

I actually went through the same about 2 weeks ago. I wanted to have a dual monitor running with a tv-out to my tv because I don't have a DVD burner and wanted to watch my DVD's on the big screen so I go around to like 15 different mom and pop stores, find one, come home and pop open the case and *pow* theres no AGP slot and the vid card is intergrated. Now I know I should have noticed this b4 being as I have been in the case b4 but I didn't. That really pissed me off. I have the same problem as you with the 3d support. Also the intergrated vid card doesn't have True Color which means I can't play a lot of the game I want to. Which just teached me the same lesson I knew already. You want a good box? Build it yourself.

btw I don't feel like looking for the thread but there is another kinda relavent to this subject. Somethign about m$ and bios.

hjack

well you get what you pay for..

when you choose to buy a motherboard.. it's best to get a good one.

for the most part.. you can turn off the integrated stuff in the bios and add cards in.
but getting a mobo without an APG slot.. well.. that is sad indeed..

Guys you don't have any excuse for not knowing what's in your box and what your box can support.

I will agree. Integration sucks big time and I don't mess with it. An integrated sound card I can leave with but an integrated video card, no way.

Heads up, I believe there are some pci slot video cards out there that may work for you guys. Am assuming you have free pci slots. All video cards are not AGP but AGP are better. You should be able to get a nice pci video card out there that supports 3D rendering.

Again integration sucks big time.

Guidance...

I think this is a lesson learned and it will benefit other people who read this thread and will take the time to do more research on a computer before buying it, I know I do granted it is a pain in the ass sometimes and time consuming but in the end it is worth the time spent doing it

Who did you get to write your unbiased poll answers? The good people at FOX News?

Integrated components are a very good thing. Eventually the entire computer will be reduced to a single chip which will be _very_ nice. That is a ways off still for the consumer level, but in the meantime we get to enjoy advantages of both cheaper systems and cheaper development which leads to faster more functional systems at an increasingly accelerated rate. This unification/simplification of hardware lends itself to higher security/high availability systems as well.

As an additional point, just because your board has an embedded sound/video/nic doesn't mean you can't still run your own. The problem you had with your video card is a symptom of the fact that systems are historically not very integrated. that is different formats, you prolly needed and AGP card and you got a PCI one or vice versa. With an integrated video adapter, there is never the concern that it will not be compatible with your system board.

These days it can be a downright daunting task for the novice to determine if they need a pci/agp(2/4/8/*) adapter, sdram/rambus/ddr (what speed goes best with the bus?) what system board goes best with the cpu and the ram? what hard driver format ata/serial ata/scsi (god knows how many types of scsi there is) All of this will eventually be resolved with the long term development of the single component system, and in the meantime any simplicity and cost benefits are for the better considering the rate at which computers depreciate in value.

catch

I believe it is going to come to the point where if you want specific componets in the box you are going to have to build it yourself. Personally I think it is the best way to do it because teaches you more about the computer and you can take pride in showing off something that you built.

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Integrated components are a very good thing. Eventually the entire computer will be reduced to a single chip which will be _very_ nice.

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catch IMHO that sounds like a laptop to me. We already have a laptop why do we need our desktop as small as a laptop?

The hold point of having a desktop is so that you can have a choice as to what you want in there. More money means power when it comes desktops. So why would I want to give that away. When a better INTEGRATED desktop comes out then my old INTEGRATED desktop is no good. I can't even update a sound card for the new technology. That's bullshit and a money making gimmick.

You talk about price but updating a video card will always be cheaper than updating an entire pc.

Guidance...

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catch IMHO that sounds like a laptop to me. We already have a laptop why do we need our desktop as small as a laptop?

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The dektop is a dying market, the only reason people still buy desktops is because for equal cost they can currently get more power. As desktop systems become more and more integrated the line between desktops and laptops will be blurred, systems will be cheaper and more powerful and everyone will win. The primary issues with laptops are other space factors like drive space and cooling.

Users wishing to still have custom systems will need to migrate inot the lowend server marketplace where custom solutions will be valued for a longer period than with desktops.

Eventually however you will buy a system that will be a single integrated board including chips for video/sound/nic/print each of these having their own dedicated cpu, additionally you will see an embedded chip containing the operating system itself, which will also have it's own cpu. Same with the driver controllers and then the system will have an general purpose cpu for user applications.

This is not only the most logical and cost/performance effect development path, but it is also the direction that hardware/software companies have been seeking to go for the last two decades.

Lastly Cutty... did you miss the part where I said that with these systems for now and for some time in the future you still have the option of using third party sound/video/etc cards if you so desire. So what is the problem?

catch

dude, i'm sorry but if you are already running linux ... you gotta know what's in your box in & out... come on

how can you go out and buy a new graphics card or any add on card for that matter without checking whats in your box. sure, integrated mobos suck but thats the way they bring the cost down and giving users all the things they want. you lose the flexibility but gain in terms of a cheaper price. also integated systems are less likely to cause prblems with conflicting hardware and stuff liek that. all depends on what you are looking for. I prefer seperate parts for myhome systems. but for the office where i have to support 200 + users its much better to have an integrated system cos its much more uniform throughout the enterprise and easier to support.

like catch said, all systems wil be moving towards more and more integration. its seems inevitable. there will only be the techs and hobbyists who will want seperates.

The box I was talking about is a fairly un-used machine so I never really had a reason to check it out. Its actually my girls machine that I have hooked up to the LAN. But I agree, I should have known. As for the comment to the intergrated parts = faster machine. Maybe in some cases, yes. But 95% of the intergrated machines on the consumer market are there for 2 reasons; Vender Dependibility and quick turn around by consumers on new machines so that they can stay current.



hjack

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Originally posted here by gore
I bought an Nvidia E-GEFORCE 2 MX 400 Video card today with 64 MBs, I pop the case off and SUPRISE! The slot for graphics upgrades doesnt fit for the card. Its too small.

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Gore> I see from your profile you're running an HP pavillion PIII 733 Mhz? I think I know what the problem is.

I recently bought a new mobo (Celeron PIII 800 upgrade to P4 2.4) and SURPRISE! My old graphics card wouldn't fit anymore. It was too big. The reason is because older AGP cards run on 3V DC, and newer ones run on 1.5V DC (or vice versa, I can't remember which way). If you had placed that new shiny video card in that old dusty mobo, you would have fried it. It's designed that way to be idiot-proof. If it wasn't for that difference, I would have fried my new shiny NVIDIA Geforce 2 64MB video card too. Basically, your mobo is too old for you video card.

One more question... did you buy an AGP or a PCI card?

Hey I didn't even notice you had a hp gore. Kinda ironic.

The box I was talking abotu is a 900mhz HP Pavilion 7200

Damn hp's :P


hjack

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Lastly Cutty... did you miss the part where I said that with these systems for now and for some time in the future you still have the option of using third party sound/video/etc cards if you so desire. So what is the problem?

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The problem is, in some cases (and that's not rare at all) when a part on a mobo goes it usually takes the entire mobo with it. The more integration the more likely the mobo will go bad faster hence decreasing the life span of the mobo. I just think that sucks but as you said it's the way the market is going.

It would be better for a lot of average users but I don't have to like it. And in truth I don't. :)

Guidance...

I am sorta indifferent. I see both sides of the arguement. I have a Dell, yes I know you can piss on my writhing corpse on the ground, but if you don't want it integrated you can specify or, you can build your own box. I have built boxes before and I loved them, but the **** would sometimes not work or there would be conflicts. But, I have a Dell and I have never had a problem with it. I just ordered it so that the graphics card wasn't integrated. NIC cards are no big deal, because you can always throw another one in. But I am fine with it being integrated for the reason it smooths things out and since that machine doesn't run linux it makes it easier on the techies when I find problems with their frieken hardware ;) ...


Adiz

Everything on the mobo, is the way the big manufaturers like Dell, HP etc inhibit us from upgrading our pc's, this is just good business as we are forced to bye new rather than upgrading. Hardware is not the onlyway eighther, I have heard of Bios updates that reduse the amount of ram that a board will handle. Perhaps i'm overly synicle But how many of us has had a new Television or Video that has gone bang two days after the warrenty has expired.

Catch; i'm not so sure the desktop is a dying market, sure there is a slowdown in sales but i think that is due to people upgrading and making there kit last longer. I think people have got wise to the fact that they don't need to bye a new pc every 12 months.

One thing that I allways do, is to buy a computer in parts and then build it together at home. This way is much cheaper then buy a ready made computer at the store, and another point is that you can choose your own hardware.

The most ready made computers from for example Dell or Acer have other hardware slots which are only compatible with the hardware of the manufacturer, and not with standardized hardware.

Hi Guys, an interesting thread.

I have encountered Gore's problems on several occasions. Generally because the User has gone and bought the component themselves :eek:

In Gore's case I cannot work out if he has bought a PCI videocard, or if it is a videocard that does not fit his AGP slot. If it is a PCI card, it will still work if he has a spare PCI slot, but they only run at 33Mhz as opposed to the 66MHz of the AGP slot. :(

If it is AGP and does not fit, then there are two possibilities:

1. It is the wrong voltage (as already explained)
2. The MoBo and video card are at the extreme ends of their manufacturing tolerances. I recently bought two identical 56.6 PCI modems. One fitted a box when the other one did not, yet fitted perfectly into another machine I was upgrading! This is not uncommon when installing memory upgrades using cheap generic components, in my experience.

As for integrated systems:

1. They are fine for a cheap office/second box or for a kid's first computer. If you buy one of these because of budget constraints, make sure the MoBo has the capability of being upgraded to what you want the box to be when you can afford it. I doubt if the difference will be more than $10? A mate of mine complained about this to me a couple of weeks ago.......he had just "discovered" that the MoBo he had bought didn't even have an AGP slot!

2. They are a problem, in that if one component fails, you cannot fix it unless you either add a dedicated card or replace the whole MoBo. All your "eggs are in one basket" so to speak.

3. They are generally reliable, as you know that all the components are compatible.

As for ready made systems, I have a 2 Dells, an IBM and a Digital. I have had no difficulty in upgrading any of them, but I know to check for compatibility first (restoring old computers is a hobby of mine). I agree with those who say you should build your own, because then you are in control of what you get AND its potential for upgrades.

For a budget solution I like old ex-corporate desktops. This is because they have very standard and basic components, and generally have a good capacity for upgrading. Their very idea is that a basic system is bought in bulk, and the Corporation upgrades the ones they need for special applications/users . They tend to support any additional components that are on the market, not just those from the manufacturer. In this respect I have found IBM to be the best and Dell the worst. I also do not like Dell's tendency to supply a "castrated" BIOS!

Just a few thoughts on the subject.

BTW. Gore, I shall come to you for help next time I need to word a customer satisfaction survey :D

Cheers

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Integrated components are a very good thing.

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That depends on whether you are selling a 74 ford pinto...
or the fool who buys it.

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The dektop is a dying market, the only reason people still buy desktops is because for equal cost they can currently get more power.

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not to mention the fact that laptops were invented by SATAN!
Have you hung around on these forums long enough to hear
all the sorry tales of woe coming from the unfortunate souls
who want help with their laptops?

If God had wanted you to own a laptop, he would have surgically
embedded in in your brain... but wait, that's the next growth
business. Losta money to be made!

You wouldn't be a used car salesman would you?
:cool:

Wow, this is one of the most intelligent threads I have seen in quite some time (TheHorse13 smiles with approval).

The bottom line is that a case can be made for open and integrated systems based on requirements. For example, if I want to setup kiosks, more than likely I'm going to want to ghost images, thus, standardize hardware and minimize the physical size of the unit. An additional element is that you will have minimal costs educating your support staff in relation to deploying open systems. This is simply because with open systems, the chances of different hardware showing up in each unit (either upfront or over time) is very high. Having to teach helpdesk level 1 donkeys how to support a wide array of hardware is a daunting task (trust me).

Anyway, I can't see open systems drying up as long as techies and entusiasts are around. I know that at home all of my boxes are open (that is all I will buy) while at work, due to standards, etc. many are integrated systems. I know that I'm not alone here. :)

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(TheHorse13 smiles with approval)

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No you don't. You only do that when you see naked women. :D

Integrated boards have there place. They have brought down the over all price of a computer so most people can afford them, but you get what you pay for. These boards are great for the 75% of people out there that just use it to surf, email and do there homework. If you're going to be play graphic intence games or anything that may require more than a POS sound or vidio card you should build your own system or at least understand what the system your going to buy can and can't do!

since i've been criticized for not posting "relevant" info ... just bitching ...

integration is a good thing, when i build a system for someone i always go w/ integrated nic 10/100. it's pretty unlikely that you will ever need to uprgrade nic at home. Not everyone needs Audigy either & on board sound chips are getting better and better. If you never plan on playing games intergrated video will suffice. all this will save you tons of money. of course, power users should have the choice to buy bare bone components....

anyway... i still stand by what i said ... gore, you are a senior member but still buying a PCI card and then realizing you have AGP is a rookie mistake...

GORE: when you open your case is the spot that you are trying to put your graphics card in a white slot or a brown one?? If it is white then you need to go purchase a PCI card, if its Brwon then you will want to go check out 2 different types of AGP cards, for some reason in the last couple years they have been making two different types of AGP cards, one of the cards can adapt to any AGP slot the other will not. so let me knwo and I can steer you towards a graphics card from there

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Originally posted here by Spyrus
GORE: when you open your case is the spot that you are trying to put your graphics card in a white slot or a brown one??

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Holy ****....I wake up and check my thread and it's became huge! At least I got a reaction out of people. As for a rookie mistake, my specialty is in Operating Systems and setting up security, NOT hardware.

As for the above, lol man the free slot is brown, I may not be a hardware tech but I did RTFM for what I was supposed to do, lol. It would be a bit hypocritical of me to tell people to RTFM when they ask questions that are easy to answer if I didnt do it myself.


Ahhh Thehorse, smiling over my thread huh? Lol, I know how to get a reaction out of people and I know how to turn a simple bitch thread about integration into a long ass REAL disscussion.

As for the person who said something about my unbiased poll, it's MY poll and doesnt need to be fair. From all the posts this person made in this thread, I'd think you were bill gates. You love Windows, find a way to not update (Ohh a power user), and then you say integration is good?

I told the guy to open the case before I bought this machine, and the machine before it. It's not my P3 box, that ones doing fine and has a REAL video card in it, an Nvidia Riva TNT 2 with 16 MBs of memory and a Sound Blaster card in it. This is a Medion with a 2400 MHz Celeron and 256 in RAM. Integration isn't good, it's a rip off.

If you told those people "Oh yes, by the way, we are sticking in parts of hardware that arent even REAL to save you money when in actuallity it wont because the bitch video card uses YOUR RAM" I'm sure theyd thank you :rolleyes:

And to whoever said "gore your a senior making a rookie mistake" Lick nuts man. Status on Antionline doesnt mean dick, there could be newbies here that know more than any of us. Status is just a count of how big a post whore you are anymore anyway.

I'm a top ten AP earner too, does that mean I'm smarter with everything and better than the newbies? No. It just means that when I actually post, people tend to like it for some reason. And in either case, I'm not a hardware guru, Im an OSs and security guy with a sence of humor.

And again, this problem would have never happened if they used actual parts in the box. This bullshit is exactly like "Winmodems". And we all know how nice those are right? :rolleyes:

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And again, this problem would have never happened if they used actual parts in the box. This bullshit is exactly like "Winmodems". And we all know how nice those are right?

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gore, don't get us started on "Winmodems". That bullshit we lead us right in M$ talk and you know how those go.

Oh by the way, "Winmodems" suck more than integration.

Guidance...

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Originally posted here by cutty


gore, don't get us started on "Winmodems". That bullshit we lead us right in M$ talk and you know how those go.

Oh by the way, "Winmodems" suck more than integration.

Guidance...

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I wasn't trying to like attack you or anything like that, so don't take it wrong, I'm not THAT big of a *****. But I totally agree with your thoughts on "Windmodems". But also I think they are the same thing because they are a hardware peice that uses your OS and your processor cycles instead of its own power just like win modems do.

And just like winmodems, Linux can use them but not as well. The reason I bought that card last night was so I could use Linux with 3d and play tux racer, and for Unreal Tournament. I have this PC hooked up to some regular speakers and a sub woofer so my neighboors can tell if I'm winning at Unreal Tournament or not. The sound works fine in Linux and so does the NIC, and if the NIC didnt work I had already bought an extra NIC the night I bought this PC, I spent like a thousand dollars in cash that night setting this up nice.

It's also hooked up to a 17 inch flat screen that I boughtt he same day that has a button for when your playing a game or when your watching a DVD that widens the screen and makes the picture more vivid. Im taking the PC and the card into the store today to let them look at it so I can get something that will work with it.

Also, I want to thank everyone in this thread for your opinions, even though some I did'nt agree with, I still say thanks for stating how you feel.

I have had a lot of problems with integrated hardware in the past. Mostly because of the driver support. I do have to say that at least you can shut most of that stuff off in the BIOS (At least on the systems that I have bought) and that is at least a good thing.

Yea CX, I went into BIOS and shuit it off but then when the brown slot on the MOBO was too small I had to redo it again. Oh well, at least today it wil be fixed and I can put Linux back on here. :)

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The most ready made computers from for example Dell or Acer have other hardware slots which are only compatible with the hardware of the manufacturer, and not with standardized hardware.

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I have added ATI display cards different harddrives and a dvd burner other nics and different ram and it all has worked fine. You just need to know how to update the bios on these dumb dells.

But you can upgrade them. Sometimes difficult but you can!

Well, I'm going to have to agree with the unappreciated side of this debate - Integration is a good thing, possibly one of the BEST things to happen to desktops...

The ONLY time it causes problems is when you don't plan ahead for what you want or may want that system to be used for.

If you're going to buy a system that may eventually become a game machine - then make sure it either has a good enough video card integrated or that it has the type of slot (agp/pci) that you'll need to put the video card you want in it.

My wifes Compaq (ugh, not complimenting compaq btw they evil dogs imho) is a good example. It came with an integrated video card that was better then the GeForce cards out at the time (great 3d handling/redering and OpenGL support), but since she uses it almost solely for games, I simply made sure it had an AGP 4x slot in it. So as time went on its had GeForce 2 and GeForce 3 cards swapped in and I have the integrated video turned off now that its become outdated. (Not sure if it has GeForce 3 or 4 in it atm)...

Likewise, she doesn't care about having 5.1 surround sound for her gaming - so its integrated sound is great as it requires noticably LESS system resources then a sound card would consume. Making her games run better/smoother then a non-integrated sound card would.

And the #1 reason this is possibly a 'great' thing for desktops, by buying a system with an integrated sound and video cards we saved a considerable amount of money allowing us to buy 2 systems for just a small amount more then 1 would of cost with non-integrated parts...

RRP

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Originally posted here by bpiedlow

And the #1 reason this is possibly a 'great' thing for desktops, by buying a system with an integrated sound and video cards we saved a considerable amount of money allowing us to buy 2 systems for just a small amount more then 1 would of cost with non-integrated parts...

RRP

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A REAL NIC is only like 10 dollars, a Sound Blaster card is about 70 dollars and I paid 50 for the Vid Card....... $130.00 is a huge savings? I don't think so man.

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I wasn't trying to like attack you or anything like that, so don't take it wrong, I'm not THAT big of a *****. But I totally agree with your thoughts on "Windmodems". But also I think they are the same thing because they are a hardware peice that uses your OS and your processor cycles instead of its own power just like win modems do.

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gore I was just kidding man.:) I am not that lame. And I don't believe people personally attack each other and even if they do it doesn't bother me. I am cool man and this thread is going great. Keep them coming.

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If you're going to buy a system that may eventually become a game machine - then make sure it either has a good enough video card integrated or that it has the type of slot (agp/pci) that you'll need to put the video card you want in it.

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bpiedlow there's is no such thing as a good enough video card. Do you know how fast these things upgrade? Before you know it your integrated video card wouldn't worth ****. On the other hand ensuring that the board has an AGP slot is the way to go until they upgrade the voltage on the slot again and make it even smaller.:) Bastards... Money making freaks…

Guidance...

yeah whatever ... AP don't mean **** right??? Unless the seniors use them as leverage!

"lick nuts"... huh??? ...is that what you do after you are done plowing a guy in the ass?!

i'm not the one who buys lego parts that don't fit.

Christ...

i cant NOT chime in on this one. i think its important to look at the difference between integrated parts and PROPRITAIRY crap in a computer. case in point, Compuke chose 2 years ago to get away from using thier broken Motherboard design (cut in half and plugged together via bridge with integrated crap on it) and they started using standardized sized equipment in thier systems (standard ram sizes, and im sure some of you remember trying to put a different AGP card into a compuke system to notice that the screw-offset was not standard, hence you NEEDED to buy a compuke system part for twice the cost).

now for integrated parts:

there are a few things that make total sense in to integrate into a computer. first and formost would be network. i am so happy that i finally dont have to chew up a pci slot to get a network connection running, and its gigabit which means that im good for a few more years, and at least longer than i expect to keep the motherboard (i only use ASUS, for their extensability and ease of use for the past 8 years). Sound is another good one to build in, most are now 5/1 sound and fully capable of reproducing what most mainstream users will do. AND, if you bought a decient board, ALL of the integrated components can be disabled so you can run your own equipment if you want (yes, it can suck to pay for stuff you will not use, however, as computer electronics have fallen in price, you aernt exactly spending a bundle more to have integrated LAN/audio/video, ect).

finally, who wants to have to add in RAID controllers, USB cards, Firewire cards, ect just to fully take advantage of the other electronic components that you have in the house (ditital camera, camcorder, dvd, ect).

i think that most will agree that in the computer world, you really do get what you pay for. all you have to do is look at the package, and see.. if it says "sound blaster compatable" or "us Robotics compatable"...save yourself the time, trouble, and forget the 10 dollars more you pay, (unless your TIME is NOT worth money, and i dont know anyone whose is not).

long rant, and if you are still reading, then you are a better man than me, cause i think i disengaged my brain, about 30 seconds ago...*smile*

10 years ago, i used to buy the cheapest motherboard possible, and it took a few total failures to realize that the foundation in which you build a system around is one of the most important and crutial decisions you make. cause, you can have all the turbo-charging, and gigs of ram in the world, but if you build it on a chassi made from rocks and sticks, all you got is a turbo-charged rock, with a stick.

heh

-javadog

WHat a long rant to actually have no opinion at all !

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Originally posted here by etruscan
yeah whatever ... AP don't mean **** right??? Unless the seniors use them as leverage!

"lick nuts"... huh??? ...is that what you do after you are done plowing a guy in the ass?!

i'm not the one who buys lego parts that don't fit.

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If APs dont mean **** to you, quit making posts about them. And as for me licking nuts, Im not the one that made a post about how much I hate woman, remember? And as for lego parts, Nvidia are not ****ing legos, there the best cards int he world in my opinion.

For the record, why the hell did you bring up APs? Im not the one that negged you, if you do remember I did give you pos points for my other hardware thread, before you made that bitch ass thread about how you hate woman and ****.


If you want to pretend you ARE smarter than me, than back it up, we can have a contest/wargame.

*ahem*
i _did_ vote...... *smile*, im actually pretty neutral on it. again, i buy the BEST motherboard for the required application, and if it has or does not have integrated equipment, that does not make or break the sale for me. i look for chipset, type/amount of max ram, and the companies history on BIOS flash upgrades and extensability with the board. AND very importantly, the ability to turn off or turn on integrated equipment in the BIOS.

respectfully....

-java

just for the record ... i don't hate women ... just poem writting sensitive quiche eaters ... no matter what's between their legs...

all i'm saying next time open the case BEFORE you buy... sorry for lashing out but "lick nuts" comment wasn't necessary on your side... and yes NVIDIA rocks... i just hope they won' rock too hard ... the last thing we need is monopoly yet in another market... (i've Geforce 2 /32)

yep, yep