Why I don't recommend Firefox

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September 6, 2004

Firefox has a grassroots marketing campaign underway where they’re trying to get bloggers to add a Firefox button to their blogs. Asa Dotzler recently sent me an email asking me to participate.

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We noticed and appreciate your repeated recommendations for Firefox at your weblog and we were hoping that you would further help get the word out by adding a small Firefox button to your blog. The image is hosted at mozilla.org and the code to add it is some very simple HTML. We depend on word of mouth (or of blog) and we appreciate your helping to spread the word with positive blog posts. If you’re interested in helping with this effort, you can find the buttons at http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/buttons.html.
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Actually, I don’t think I ever have recommended Firefox. I use it and do talk about it on occassion, but I think the browser has some way to go before I’d recommend it to the general population. Something as simple as upgrading from one version to another needs to be seamless and not break things before I’d suggest that everyone use Firefox. I understand why at this stage of Firefox development upgrades sometimes need to break things, but it’s still not okay to the average user.

Aggressively marketing Firefox before it is a completely stable product is dangerous. You’re running the risk of having people trying it out and being put off by the bugs, never again to return.

Other problems with the browser include…

It doesn’t entirely act like a native application on all platforms.
Popup blocking is sometimes over-aggressive. Popups launched from a positive user action (like clicking a link) should ALWAYS work. This is a tough one to get right, I know. And don’t tell me about the whitelist. The average user isn’t going to add lots of entries to the whitelist.
No “Go” buttons next to the address bar and search bar by default. Many, many users need a button to click. They don’t know that just hitting enter will do the trick. The Address bar and search fields are also too similar. “Why do I have two fields and shich one do I type ‘yahoo.com’ into so I can start using the Internet?” Yes, I know you can add the button, but if I need a button, there’s no way I’m going to be able to figure out how to do THAT.
The launch problem in Windows ME needs to be solved. Yes, Windows ME sucks, but lots of people use it, and getting an error message everytime they click a URL shortcut in the OS is bad. Error messages are scary to the average user.
Firefox right now is very good for an experienced net user, but is not at all ready for the average person. If you plan on targeting the general public, you need to understand the general public.

Most Web users don’t know what a browser is. That blue E they click on the desktop isn’t a browser, it’s “The Internet.” Or maybe it’s “Yahoo” if that’s what their home page is set to. Tell them to download a new browser and they don’t understand what you mean. I put Firefox on my wife’s computer and removed the IE link. She asked why she didn’t have My Yahoo on the computer anymore. My wife’s not stupid — to her the IE logo is how she got to the Web. Without that, she didn’t know how to get to My Yahoo.

You’d be shocked how many people don’t understand what a URL is and what the address bar is for. When they need to go to a site, they close the browser, re-open it so they get the MSN or Yahoo home page, and enter the URL into the search box. How about integrating the address bar and the search field? If what I entered isn’t a URL, pass it to Google.

It’s time to stop thinking like developers and start thinking like users. For evidence that the Firefox team thinks like developers you don’t need to go any farther than the Firefox home page. Let’s look over that page and put ourselves into the user’s shoes…

Firefox 0.9 is the award winning preview of Mozilla’s next generation browser.

What’s a preview? Does that mean I can’t use it. Is it like a demonstration or something? And what’s a next-generation browser? I thought this thing was supposed to help me use the Internet.

View more than one web page in a single window

You have to be a serious power user to appreciate that feature. Many people only have a single window open all the time anyway. If they need another window, they close the first one.

Firefox keeps your computer safe from malicious spyware by not loading harmful ActiveX controls.

What’s an activeX control? What’s spyware? All I want is to stop getting all those stupid programs I didn’t ask for.

Firefox is the most customizable browser on the planet.

There’s that browser word again. What is it? And why would I customize it? Does that mean that this won’t work when I get it? I’m going to have to work on it to get it working?

Use the adaptive search system to allow you to search an infinite number of engines.

Why are they talking about engines here? I though this was something for my internet, not my car.

The new Easy Transition system imports all of your settings - Favorites, passwords and other data from Internet Explorer and other browsers.

I don’t know what that means. Maybe if I get this thing, the way I use the Internet is going to change. All I want is a way to use the Internet without getting all that junk. I don’t want to have to change my passwords and stuff to do that.

Firefox comes with a standard set of developer tools including a powerful JavaScript and CSS error/warning console, and an optional Document Inspector that gives unheard of insight into how your pages work.

Uh-oh, now I know why I didn’t understand all that stuff. This thing’s something that programmers use.

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Source : http://kalsey.com/2004/09/why_i_dont_recommend_firefox/

nice post. I use firefox myself but i never really looked into it that way and thought about the general public using it. After reading that i understand what you mean, my dad hardly knows how to turn the computer on, i have to help him get to Ebay. roffles! and after reading this I realize that firefox does need a little more work to it. good post man, thank you for the reading

Wait, so basically his entire argument is "Users will always be stupid, and we shouldn't ever educate them because they won't ever understand it". How hard it is to say:

"This browser will help keep you safe on the internet in different ways, kind of like how certain types of cars are safer to drive."

If they ask further questions, then answer them. But that sentance right there will solve almost every non-uber person's question out there. We need to stop thinking that somehow people can use IE easier because it's easier to understand. WRONG. Everything in example stated in the post was speculation of what a user would ask (as valid as me saying that a user may try to shove a knife through my heart because of confusion questions)) rather than how to explain things in a simple way for the user.

You don't tell someone the emitted wave levels and gamma effects of a microwave, and then kick them out of the store because they don't understand the physics of microwavelength technology. You explain it in terms they understand.

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Wait, so basically his entire argument is "Users will always be stupid, and we shouldn't ever educate them because they won't ever understand it". How hard it is to say:

"This browser will help keep you safe on the internet in different ways, kind of like how certain types of cars are safer to drive."

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(L)user answer: what's a browser? I don't care about now browser I just want myyahoo...
And it goes downhill from there... And I'm speaking from experience here.

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We need to stop thinking that somehow people can use IE easier because it's easier to understand. WRONG.
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Nobody said it was easier to understand: it's just what they're used to; and once people manage to get a however so small grasp of how to go online (through IE 99% of the time, since it's the default...) they don't want to give that up and relearn to browse, nor will they understand why they should. No it's not rationnal thinking, but that's human nature: change scares people.

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...rather than how to explain things in a simple way for the user.

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You know, in life there isn't always a simple explanation to everything. When someone doesn't even know and/or understand the basics, abstracting to a higher level will only confuse them more and either lead them to "hear and forget" or build themselves an incorrect mental image of the process...


Anyways, it isn't the point of the article to put down plain users, but rather to point out that firefox just isn't a perfectly transparent solution that has a flat learning curve for plain users.
Personnaly, I agree that at minimum, before firefox can become a valid replacement for everyone, the auto-updates need to be working.


Ammo

For anyone who says "X is good" there will likely be a number of people who say "X is bad", not necessarily equal. This effect is amplified when any loudmouth can put up his own website/page and rant on it. :)

Just a thought.....

When they have finished "polishing" Firefox so it is easy enough to use for the general public what are the chances that it will be as full of potential ways to exploit it or the user as IE?

Remember:-

Security ----------------------------------------------------------------- Usability

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(L)user answer: what's a browser? I don't care about now browser I just want myyahoo...
And it goes downhill from there...

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We can't we just kick those folks off the Internet? :D

I guess I have to agree with Pooh on this one. I use Firefox at home, and at work. My wife (who is not a computer person at all) and my son switch between Firefox, IE, Safari, and Netscape depending on which machine they happen to be using. My wife has had a few "baywatch" moments, but the 7 year old has no problems using it.

I happen to like firefox a lot. Marketing Firefox before it is 100% (in your opinion) is no different then Apple having different versions of their OS (ever used an even version of Mac OS?) Or the many version of Linksys routers. As the product gets to the market place and the company gets feedback from the users saying "We want the GO button" then the product will grow to match demand. But if it never gets out there, even if it has every feature you could ever want, it is still a dead product.

Personally I seriously doubt there are too many users that couldnt use it as is today. Novice or otherwise. But with all things, they will find something they like and stick with it. That maybe be IE or Netscape or whatever. Error message do scare some novice users, but then again, they get some errors all the time, like dead links and DNS errors no matter what they are using. I dont think that is a good reason to turn people away. And I have recommended it to a couple of people here at work and they like it.

I wasnt aware of a lot of the issues with Firefox you mentioned. But I have been using it for a while without issue. (That probably why I was unaware that others WERE having issues). I have found Firefox to be stable and easy to use. From a users point of view, not a reviewers.

This article pisses me off.No 'Go' button to click ? Where do I type in the address? It's in defense of clueless windows users that just want to forward all the FWD: messages in their Outlook Express inbox to everyone on their list and read the news on msn.com . Why don't they just stick with IE?
I recomend Firefox.

Well,

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Anyways, it isn't the point of the article to put down plain users, but rather to point out that firefox just isn't a perfectly transparent solution that has a flat learning curve for plain users.

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Going on my experience of "ordinary" users, they don't have much idea because they actually don't need one, and they are not technically minded/interested.............it is just a tool. I have never come across one who had problems with using Mozilla 1.7 or Opera instead of IE. Mostly they don't even think of it because IE comes with the box and they are happy to use it. In a perverse sort of way their lack of sophistication makes the transition to another browser simpler.

I am sure that we all know of people who buy MS Office and never ever user Powerpoint or Access?

As I interpreted the article it was somewhat critical of promoting a product that wasn't fully developed. Whilst there might be an element of truth in that, the people the author is referring to sound the same as many that I encounter.

If they don't know what a browser is they sure as hell won't know what a "blog" is :D so no harm will be done.

just my thoughts

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If they don't know what a browser is they sure as hell won't know what a "blog" is so no harm will be done.

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Whats a blog?





If a user doesn't try anything new, then they will never progress above the leval that they are at now. They will never learn anything new and probably also never use a AV or firewall, or do any Windows updates......because they just don't know. And since they don't know, they don't care.

I agree with Moxnix....how can new users ever progress above the level that they are now. Everyone super user or regular user is aware of how buggy M$ can be. I have firefox installed at work and at home, and is on the standard build for my division, and everyone that is trying is telling me how great Firefox is. Firefox hopefully will become great one day, but as all software that becomes popular people will find holes and bugs in it.

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If a user doesn't try anything new, then they will never progress above the leval that they are at now. They will never learn anything new and probably also never use a AV or firewall, or do any Windows updates......because they just don't know. And since they don't know, they don't care.

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That is exactly the situation as I see it. I know quite a few people who look on their PC as a glorified mobile phone with typwriting capabilities.

I just returned a laptop this morning. The guy who owns it is pretty intelligent, but does not know a lot about computers. He had an unpatched WinXP box no firewall and no AV, and he had become infected. I am not sure with what, but I would assume one of the network aware nasties. Now he has AV, firewall and one or two other tools, and actually saw the firewall intercepting stuff.

I explained the problems, and he certainly took it on board. A case of "once bitten, twice shy" but the problem is that so many people get bitten, and frequently don't even know it. I am surprised that manufacturers have not taken a more proactive position on user education, as they must get loads of helpdesk calls they would otherwise avoid :confused:

How far should be dumb down software so that the average user can use it? I don't mean to sound rude, hear me out. Should we remove the Right Click just because many people don't know what it is and they get confused and use the wrong button sometimes? (Some people may say yes, and to you I say: Should we geeks get screwed out of useful features just because most people aren't knowledgeable? :p)

Quite a few of this fellows arguments are solved if someone half-way competant sets up Firefox for the user. True, most users aren't competant enough to do this, but think about it. I.E. was most likely (not always, I'll give you that) set up by someone they knew and they were most likely given the basics of how to use it. I just set up Firefox for a family I know and one of the first things the father said was "Wow! This looks a lot easier to use! There's fewer buttons!" It took me like one minute (quite literally) to explain everything to them. I even explained the Google Search Bar in the top right and they had no problem picking it up. These are just average users, too, nothing special.

Regards,
Xierox

P.S. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we can't make things new user friendly. Just don't dumb them down so much that they're unusable by more knowledgable users.

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Originally posted here by moxnix
Whats a blog?

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Its a tool for self important morons to clog up search engine results.


This fellow really had to reach to find problems and even then they are minor (If you are using win me you have much bigger problems than a bug in firefox). I have yet to see a bug in the newest firefox and i use it every day. Anyways I would take a couple of bugs even if it means having the extensions and flexabillity. Really, IE plain and simple is a piece of crap relative to firefox (M$, the 1990s called and they want your browser back). Blessed be mouse gestures, bug me not, gmail notifier, target alert, allow right click..........

MrCoffee hit on a good point when he said his 7 year old uses it with no problems. I use IE, I've always used IE. Why? because it's what I'm used to. I don't like new things when they're integral to the way I do things online. My grandkids on the other hand aren't used to IE - perhaps they'll dearly love Firefox - IF it's easy to get.

Teach the kids and conquer the world.

|3lack|ce, it's extremely easy to pick up. If you haven't tried it because you're worried about not understanding it, give it a try. There's nothing to worry about. And remember, if you don't like it, you can always go back to IE.

Regards,
Xierox

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I've always used IE. Why? because it's what I'm used to. [/B]

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So do I. Why change to other else? It fits perfectly for my current needs. I have no problem with it.

Sometimes we need just to sticky with the old ones :D

If for nothing else, it's more secure at this time as 95% of people use IE and thuse most Spyware works on only IE through IE security flaws.

Xierox

Actually I just spent the time y'all spent responding downloading FF. It's a good lil browser, and has a lot of cool extras you just can't do with IE (at least that I've found on IE). I might just keep it. The point I was making in my post wasn't so much 'we use what we're used to' as it was 'teach the kiddies.' - The business who wins the kids will win the world. It's been proven a bazillion times over. Ok maybe it was - the reason you want to teach the kiddies is because the adults resist changes. Ask the secretary at the firm I used to work for. The entire firm automated, networked, rocked on nicely, except her who left the box as another decoration on her desk, and continued using her typewriter and index cards. I hope my (now former) boss got smart and fired her by now, that's a bit too anal.

Anyways, back on thread, to the techie or technofile who understands these cool features, FF is a good one. It might be short lived though, since the rest of the world are idiots. One good thing to say for FF though, but it makes me think that IE's in there somewhere running, is that the entire FF download is 4.something megs. Try downloading a fresh MSIE sometime - the sheer size is intimidating.

All of this is just MHO, so bear with me. It irritates me why "some" "don't recommend" brand X.

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It doesn’t entirely act like a native application on all platforms.

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Native compared to what? What problems are encountered due to this "issue"?

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Popup blocking is sometimes over-aggressive. Popups launched from a positive user action (like clicking a link) should ALWAYS work. This is a tough one to get right, I know. And don’t tell me about the whitelist. The average user isn’t going to add lots of entries to the whitelist.

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And IE doesn't have a popup blocker at all. In fact, IE hasn't had anything close to a major overhaul in over 2 years (or something like that, I don't track it). It's an effort to prevent the NINE MILLION GAZILLION BILLION TRILLION popups that any random user may encounter because they go to thousands of sites that either A: have spyware that starts the popup chain or B: have lots of window.open() or other javascript.

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No “Go” buttons next to the address bar and search bar by default. Many, many users need a button to click. They don’t know that just hitting enter will do the trick. The Address bar and search fields are also too similar. “Why do I have two fields and shich one do I type ‘yahoo.com’ into so I can start using the Internet?” Yes, I know you can add the button, but if I need a button, there’s no way I’m going to be able to figure out how to do THAT.

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Here's an inherent problem; user stupidity. MS has created a desktop that's point-and-click and that's fine except that 99% of the users out there are ignorant, uneducated, unwilling to learn, and apathetic to the fact that computers are no longer "for the rich" and you can get an decent eMachine now at Best Buy for 500 bucks. As EASY as it is now for them to become a LITTLE more intelligent in their usage of the computer, they're not doing it. Instead, they fall back on the dumbass comments like "Why is my computer so slow?" or "My internet keeps crashing.". Please, get off the "every user needs a nice point and click interface" bandwagon. I'm GLAD Firefox is more technical than other programs. I'm GLAD you have the ability to add extensions and themes, etc... Your average user, who can't for the life of them, can't add an extension but they can sure as hell download the smily face pack for YIM/MSN/AIM/etc and they can send email with forwards and pictures from their neato digital camera better than we ever will...??? WTF? Yeah, it's called selective learning. I guess if it's not fun, they don't want to learn?

The GO button is not needed. If they can't associate the enter key with pushing a "Go" button which does the same thing, then they don't need to be behind the keyboard.

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The launch problem in Windows ME needs to be solved. Yes, Windows ME sucks, but lots of people use it, and getting an error message everytime they click a URL shortcut in the OS is bad. Error messages are scary to the average user.

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If people are STILL using the worst OS MS ever produced, that's a sign they should be shot. Period. I'd recommend 95 unpatched before I ever recommend ME. Mistake Edition, Memory Eater, whatever you want to call it... If I were on the developing staff and had any say-so in a product's development, I'd make sure there wasn't any builds for ME or 95...they're WAY outclassed now that XP is so prevalent.

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Firefox right now is very good for an experienced net user, but is not at all ready for the average person. If you plan on targeting the general public, you need to understand the general public.

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No amount of education or ease-of-use or whatever will prepare your average user for anything that doesn't already come on a default Windows installation. I've already mentioned they are selective in their "learning". Why does the 7 year old have no problems but the wife completely loses it at times? Because the kid's trying to learn all he/she can and the older person simply won't. "It's too hard" or "I can't do this" or "I just want to click a button". I cater to someone's learning and want to be a better "end-user", never to their being more stupid than most outdoor patio furniture.

Most average users won't ever even land on www.mozilla.com/products/firefox so it's not an issue of "understanding" the general public. Those who want a better product will find them. The rest will live in a world of spyware-ridden, popups-everywhere, slow-ass performance, and crawling internet...I have no sympathy for them.

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Most Web users don’t know what a browser is. That blue E they click on the desktop isn’t a browser, it’s “The Internet.” Or maybe it’s “Yahoo” if that’s what their home page is set to. Tell them to download a new browser and they don’t understand what you mean. I put Firefox on my wife’s computer and removed the IE link. She asked why she didn’t have My Yahoo on the computer anymore. My wife’s not stupid — to her the IE logo is how she got to the Web. Without that, she didn’t know how to get to My Yahoo.

You’d be shocked how many people don’t understand what a URL is and what the address bar is for. When they need to go to a site, they close the browser, re-open it so they get the MSN or Yahoo home page, and enter the URL into the search box. How about integrating the address bar and the search field? If what I entered isn’t a URL, pass it to Google.

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See above about user stupidity. I've passed Firefox along to people who might qualify as the above, I've spent a few hours with them as they learned and now, you couldn't EVER get them away from Firefox, Opera, Mozilla, etc... They're living proof that users CAN be educated and that's priceless. I beam like a shiny Rolls-Royce when I hear one of them tell a coworker "Yeah, I never use IE...only for Windows Update...". It's the best feeling when someone LEARNS, they're looking to YOU, the experienced one, for guidance and help. And I love helping them. And it's the worst feeling when you try so hard to help someone out and they shove it aside because they're dumbass ignorant users who care nothing more than clicking a button and seeing www.msn.com. Please. Give me the gun now...

Oh yeah, and sorry, but yeah, your wife IS stupid if she can't get to her Yahoo if that blue E disappears...

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It’s time to stop thinking like developers and start thinking like users. For evidence that the Firefox team thinks like developers you don’t need to go any farther than the Firefox home page. Let’s look over that page and put ourselves into the user’s shoes…

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It's time users stopped being so idiotic and "led like sheep" and started thinking "there's got to be a better way". Do you know that most people now, with the way they write in email, in chat rooms, and in IM sessions, that most don't have a vocabulary at all? The internet makes people less intelligent, just like the TV does, and I'm certainly not going to blame the firefox homepage on being "overly technical" and "confusing" people that can't read past an 8th grade intelligence level.

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Firefox 0.9 is the award winning preview of Mozilla’s next generation browser.

What’s a preview? Does that mean I can’t use it. Is it like a demonstration or something? And what’s a next-generation browser? I thought this thing was supposed to help me use the Internet.

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You've got to be KIDDING me. What's a PREVIEW? Is that what a user says? No, I don't think so.
Last time I checked, most users wanted to get rid of popups, make their machine faster, etc...

...skipping some of the other stuff...

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Firefox is the most customizable browser on the planet.

There’s that browser word again. What is it? And why would I customize it? Does that mean that this won’t work when I get it? I’m going to have to work on it to get it working?

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If a user seriously doesn't know what a "browser" is, well, there's nothing I can ever do to educate their sorry ass... And the same user who customizes AIM/YIM/MSN/ICQ/etc along with making their email messages all that pretty **** in it can't customize or has to question why they would want to customize it??? What?!

...skipping some other stuff...

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The new Easy Transition system imports all of your settings - Favorites, passwords and other data from Internet Explorer and other browsers.

I don’t know what that means. Maybe if I get this thing, the way I use the Internet is going to change. All I want is a way to use the Internet without getting all that junk. I don’t want to have to change my passwords and stuff to do that.

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And this person doesn't know what the word IMPORT means? It's part of the installation. Oh wait, I forgot, this is the same user who just clicks EVERYTHING. Just keep clicking Next, Ok, or Finish, and all will be good, right?! No wonder the spyware, viruses, and whatnot are infesting their computer like termites in an old wooden A-frame house...

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My rant is over on the above, but it's yet again a sight of "think of the users". That's like saying "think of the baby seals" except I'd definitely rather club the users over the head rather than the seals. Most users I know are pretty ok. I have a set of utilities I pass on to them that I recommend and use.

Perfect Disk by Raxco
Complete Registry Cleaner by Abexo
Ad-Aware SE by Lavasoft
Firefox by Mozilla
Thunderbird by Mozilla

I sit down with them, import everything, update everything, fix up their machine, defrag the drive(s), etc...then I show them EXACTLY what they need to do. And after about two weeks of them doing it, they're SO AMAZED at the performance increase, lack of spam, lack of spyware, fast internet, etc...they're falling over themselves thanking me for my time, etc...of which I did for free...all I say is "Buy the next version that comes out of program X or donate 10-20 bucks". And most have...

That's the best feeling in the world...educating someone who wants a better internet, a better machine that runs as good as it did when they bought it, etc...they're the end user who woke up and said "Damn, I'm tired of this slow crap, popups, and spyware! Show me the light!". All those need are someone who's willing to show them what's good, what's not, and how to use it. Do that and you have a converted user. And you know what they say about the converted, hehe...sometimes, they're 100% more zealous than you'll ever be.

Sorry if I come off as caustic or hostile...I just didn't like the post this other guy had somewhere else (not you SDK :D) where he pointed out how the browser wasn't "user-friendly", slammed on the technical side of Firefox, and definitely didn't show the good things that Firefox DOES bring to the table...a faster-loading, popup-included, non-spyware infested browser that has functionality that IE has YET to look at and is better all-around in a lot of areas that IE and others aren't. Those are MHO, of course, but it hasn't crashed yet, hasn't caused a single error in Windows (since it's not tied into the "engine" of windows, hehe), is fast as hell, and is 100% free. I've even donated $50.00 to Mozilla because of their work in Firefox and Thunderbird, which I also use.

I'll add my 2c..... You knew I would..... ;)

Some facts:

1. Almost very machine a person buys today comes with IE
2. They don't care what it is as long as it gets them to their pr0n.
3. When they get to work and it's different they start making noises.
4. If it doesn't get changed they stop using it.
5. When they stop using it parts of their job go undone thus they are unproductive.
6. When their Administrators ask why they are unproductive they say X doesn't work.
7. The administrators come down on IT and eventually you give up.

Some facts about _my_ work environment:

1. My workstation is slightly faster then the average for my company, (AMD 1G/256M RAM).
2. I run on a 10BaseT connection while most users run on 100BaseT.
3. They use IE, I use IE.
4. They use Access 97, I use Access 97... But I have 2002.
5. In short... everything they have is either equal to or better than what I have.

Now why is that??????

Simple really.... Because I know what they are dealing with... I can see where the problems are and mitigate them or warn the users about them. I can see the limitations of my network before they can.

What does that do?.... It keeps me ahead of the game.... I see the problems before the users can and I plan and fix them before there is reason for complaint.

The same applies with the use of IE... With the list of "facts" above I need to use it in the environment my users have to and stay on top of the issues. Yeah, we get spyware... I have 650 machines on the network. But I don't get anything dangerous because the policy on the web filter is set to catch the worst offending sites before they can get to it. Couple that with an effective IDS system that is updated daily or more often if it is necessary. The fact is that, for the most part, spyware is harmless.... It eats my bandwidth is my biggest complaint.... Yeah... I know.... Cleaning time.... I spend 15 minutes on it.... If I fail I call an employee to re-image the disk..... period.... No big deal.....

IE is a perfectly functional, easy to use, accepted and preferred by the majority, (even if it is by "default"), and will continue to be for a long time.

My old adage to my CEO has always been:-

It's your train set. you can play with it any way you like.... It's my job to make it work for you".

How hard is this folks....

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3. When they get to work and it's different they start making noises.
4. If it doesn't get changed they stop using it.
5. When they stop using it parts of their job go undone thus they are unproductive.

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Well Tiger if you want to make a change and you know your users are going to bitch and complain, and not accept the change..........you just do like the large oil companies are doing.

Implement a large change at once........let them bitch......then back it down a little........repeate the processes as needed.

Example > Gasoline was at approx. $1. 699 and they raised it quickly to approx. $2. 299 and then slowly backed it off to about $1.949......raised it again and have backed it off now to $2.039 and everyone is saying "Oh, its not so bad now."

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It's your train set. you can play with it any way you like.... It's my job to make it work for you

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Mox: I'll draw your attention to that..... If I can't manage this then I shouldn't be there......

OTOH, there are occasions where the threat is too great so I do exactly as you state and it works just fine..... I suppose that it's _possible_ that finding the correct balance between letting them do what they want and enforcing certain stuff within what it is they want to do is called "management"..... :eek:

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And IE doesn't have a popup blocker at all. In fact, IE hasn't had anything close to a major overhaul in over 2 years (or something like that, I don't track it).

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Just to let you know they just installed a popup blocker with sp2.

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Originally posted here by muert0
Just to let you know they just installed a popup blocker with sp2.

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I don't mean to be overly pessimistic, but 10 to 1 says that sites will have a way around this within a month or two. I'm not saying this is Microsoft's fault, but every advertiser in the world's gonna be looking for ways to get around it because without popups they go broke. This would probably happen with every popup blocker if it became enough of a hastle for the people who live off the revenue generated by their ads.

Regards,
Xierox

I think that if a user whinges about their blue "E" missing, you should simply change the icon for an alternate browser to it and sit and laugh...mwuhahaha!!!

:)

ac

I tried to completely switch a couple of my friends and family members over to Mozilla products not too long ago. Admittedly, the hardest question they asked was 'why?'. Me being security inclined, I started on the usual speel and within, I'd say...about 30 seconds, I could see that their eyes were starting to glaze over and their attention span was quickly starting to resemble that of someone in a coma. I found that there was no clear cut way to convince anyone to switch products. My resolution was to load both browsers on the box and let them play with each one for awhile. All I did was show them the desktop icons for each one, remove the 'set as default browser' box that likes to pop up every goddamn time someone switches browsers and let them go play on the internet. After about maybe 2 weeks I started to notice the same responses from everyone: "This Firefox/Mozilla isn't too bad at all, once I got used to it".
But, They still tend to use both IE and Mozilla/Firefox for varying reasons and I suppose that's ok. The thing that bugs me the most is that now that they know how to use both browsers, why is the reluctancy still there to completely switch over to one that is more secure?

Yeah, I know a popup blocker comes with SP2, but we all know A: how effective that'll be and B: how many of these "average users" will actually GET SP2.

My whole point is that regardless of what product you name, if it doesn't come with windows, the standard user won't ever use it because it's not like what they're used to.

As for why people would still continue to use something like IE when there's better and more secure products out there is beyond me.

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Originally posted here by Vorlin
My whole point is that regardless of what product you name, if it doesn't come with windows, the standard user won't ever use it because it's not like what they're used to.

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Very true. I myself am this way, however I'm trying to break away from it. I've begun searching for open source alternatives to programs I use a lot because I know it's generally better. I find it hard to convince myself that there could be a better program than what I use now, but once I try something different, I'm like, 'Wow! Open source did it again! Why doesn't *insert some software makers name here* do this?" I'm trying to convince myself to go to Linux and am planning on doing it as soon as I get a bigger hard drive.

Regards,
Xierox

Hi all, i realise no matter which discussion thread i swtich to, is always about microsoft IE, firefox, firebird.
I am sure if fire animal accept money from advertisement company to make it more "user friendly"
a lot of us will swtich for an alternative. Software changes brings bugs, bugs brings loophole.
etc etc.... I might have to turn to lynx.

I am happy with the way firebird/ firefox it is right now, but wont guarantee whats going to happen.

Tiger Shark, just in case if you really want all your user to switch to firefox, i got a solution for you. Setup both IE and FireFox for all their PC. Write a little script that swap the shortcut icons of IE and firefox schedule it to run once every 5minutes. If that cant convince them to start using FireFox, try point the default webpage to www.about.com and close off the permission for them to modify registry. Remember to standby high quality ear plug. (Sony have noise cancellation headphone, good for this cause).