extraditions to Turkey

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September 8th, 2005, 03:33 PM
Computernerd22

extraditions to Turkey

Hello fellow members of AO. I have a question I hope someone can answer it for me. Heres the question see the quote below? Is this true?

Quote:

Try to find proxies that originate in the country of Turkey. The US does not have any type of extraditions with that country. This means that the US cannot bully the ISP to release anything on the true IP from the proxy servers.

IMO Couldn't the US just subpeona the information from the proxy administrator in Turkey? If this is correct does anyone know anyother countrys like this? I searched http://www.google.com/unclesam?hl=en...Y+&btnG=Search

If this is in the wrong thread I do apologize wasn't really sure which one to place it in.

But I wasn't able to find the information I am searching for. Thank you, Computernerd22
September 8th, 2005, 03:43 PM
MrLinus

I'm tempted to stick this into Regulatory Discussions (hrmm.. maybe get Intmon to change it to Regulatory and Law). That said, the US can certainly put forward a subpeona but it's value is only to the borders of the US. The US has no overriding legal authority in other countries. It can use diplomatic channels if the offense is serious enough but there is no international law, AFAIK, that requires Turkey or another other nation to abide by legal requests of other nations.
September 8th, 2005, 03:47 PM
the_JinX

They can subpoena all they want.. That doesn't mean they get the info..
Even in the USA .. .. if the ISP is any good they won't give out to much info for just a subpoena !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subpoena

Quote:

This means that you may not be required to attend court if that court is located in a distant part of the state or in another state altogether.

So let alone a whole different country..

I don't know about turkey though.. They might be quite willing to help, since they are trying to get into the European Union..

But sure.. There are loads of country's and ISP's that won't help investigations in the USA..
September 8th, 2005, 03:50 PM
cacosapo

Although US doenst have jurisdiction there, Countries allways try to cooperate on law aspects.
As MsM said, diplomacy can solve that - and since AFAIK US and Turkey are "friends", i cant see a dificult to get this information, or even sue somebody on Turkey
September 8th, 2005, 03:58 PM
Computernerd22

Quote:

But sure.. There are loads of country's and ISP's that won't help investigations in the USA..

I agree. There are a lot of countries that would be a pain in the butt to obtain information from. But what I am asking lets say someone does something illegal with a proxy server from the country of Turkey, but the person who did the illegal act lives in the USA. So does that mean

Quote:

the US cannot bully the ISP to release anything on the true IP from the proxy servers.

If it is court ordered don't they have to give over the information?

Quote:

AFAIK, that requires Turkey or another other nation to abide by legal requests of other nations.

So if the other country chooses not to abide by the person could get a way scotch free? This is not for me or anything malicious or anything like that.
September 8th, 2005, 03:59 PM
MrLinus

Quote:

As MsM said, diplomacy can solve that - and since AFAIK US and Turkey are "friends", i cant see a dificult to get this information, or even sue somebody on Turkey

I think it would depend on how serious it is. If it's a simple scan, they may not do anything. If however we're talking a fair amount of money/resources lost, then they may be inclined to act.

Quote:

So if the other country chooses not to abide by the person could get a way scotch free? This is not for me or anything malicious or anything like that.

Pretty much. Why do you think that so many attackers are successful from nations such as Russia, former USSR nations, India and China? The US, who is probably -- IMO -- the most likely attacked nation, is ineffectual against dealing with those nations. The creation of an international law or treaty might help as long as nations deal with attackers both internally and externally. Resources and finances will probably be the biggest detriment to international cooperation.
September 8th, 2005, 04:06 PM
the_JinX

Quote:

But what I am asking lets say someone does something illegal with a proxy server from the country of Turkey, but the person who did the illegal act lives in the USA.

How would you know they live in the USA..

Also some ISP's might not be willing to help you even if their country is..

There are some ISP's that still think privacy is an issue and are willing to fight legal battles for it.
( xs4all in Netherlands is one of those )

But as MsM said it depends on how severe the illegal actions were..

Childporn for instance is delt with completely different from simple copyright infringements and script-kiddying..
September 8th, 2005, 04:15 PM
HTRegz

Hey Hey,

Quote:

If it is court ordered don't they have to give over the information?

You have to understand what exactly a court is and how the law is used... There is international law and therefore a World Court... but something like finding out where someone is from (who hid behind a proxy) wouldn't fall into that... You'd be looking at a police, fbi, secret service, whichever investigation... the court order would most likely come from a municipal or state court... This really holds no bearing with other countries, unless they chose to honour it. Many will, others will simply not... as a sovereign country the only laws you have to follow are your own... because they're enforced internally...

Peace,
HT
September 8th, 2005, 04:18 PM
Computernerd22

The actual topic can be found here http://www.elitehackers.info/forums/...read.php?t=230

so their are chances that you could get away with certain illegal activity minor stuff that is like "attempting" to hack into a webserver for example. Nothing like child porn or anything like that.

You would think the admins from the other countries would want to cooperate with US authority on help stopping this type of stuff. Not give the Government a hassle just to obtain some simple information.
September 8th, 2005, 04:31 PM
jinxy

Quote:

IMO Couldn't the US just subpeona the information from the proxy administrator in Turkey?

The proxy admin would probably not know what a subpeona is let alone respond to one.

If you want an example of how some countries website admins treat threats from the USA, have a look here: http://thepiratebay.org/legal.php

Read them, it is quite entertaning.
September 8th, 2005, 04:45 PM
hesperus

Don't forget that one of those suspected in the release of the Mytob and Zotob worms was arrested in Turkey.

Quote:

Police in Morocco arrested Farid Essebar, 18, a Moroccan national born in Russia who used the online moniker "Diabl0." Authorities in Turkey arrested 21-year-old Atilla Ekici, known by the online alias "Coder."

Quote:

Essebar and Ekici are suspected of releasing the Zotob and Mytob computer worms that were designed to take advantage of flaws in Microsoft's widely used Windows operating system. The suspects' nicknames can be found in the original computer programming code for Zotob, according to the FBI and Microsoft Corp., both of which worked with overseas officials on the case.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...ogy/techpolicy
Washington Post

If the action violates the law in that country (which is why your case is different, jinxy) and the two agencies are on good terms, I can't see what would stop them from nailing you. Extradition isn't an issue if you don't live in Turkey.

To me, Turkey seems the least likely candidate. Why not back woods Russia, China, Africa, SA ??
September 8th, 2005, 05:18 PM
kr5kernel

Ya but what about if you commit a crime against a US entity, from the US using a turkish proxy? The crime would be based out of the US just with a pit stop across the pond. Once again depending on how the turks decide to play ball, it wouldn't make you any less guilty.

Would it then be considered an international crime? or federal offense?

Say I use a turkish proxy and bust a webserver 1 block away from me in the USA, since the chain actually goes internaltional would it be a US federal offense since it is across state boundaries? Or would the local police step in as a result of it being a local matter? Interesting...
September 8th, 2005, 05:36 PM
Lv4

Quote:

Originally posted here by cacosapo
Although US doenst have jurisdiction there, Countries allways try to cooperate on law aspects.
As MsM said, diplomacy can solve that - and since AFAIK US and Turkey are "friends", i cant see a dificult to get this information, or even sue somebody on Turkey

not /all/ countries try to cooperate. There are several that have made their names due to not cooperating with US officials in any way. The Grand Caymens are a perfect example. My former CEO raided a couple of company accounts and hauled ass down to GC. We had the FBI working on it but they told me there was not a thing they could do to someone that is located there as the authorities in that country would not help them.

As far as I know he is still down there living the big life. The US can't even freeze his assessts, unless he has them outside of the GC banking community. *sigh*

Sometimes I want to go down there to "visit" him.
September 8th, 2005, 06:04 PM
the_JinX

Quote:

Sometimes I want to go down there to "visit" him.

Then you'd propably be breaking a law there and hope they'll let you serve your sentence in the USA ;)