Bachelors of Science in Information Security

So what does everyone think about a Bachelors of Science in Information Security? I'm actually enrolled in it right now. It has 50% hands on and 50% theory. Here is my curriculum tell me what you think?

TERM 1 12 (16) Total Credits
Course Code Course Title Credit Hours
CIT-101 Introduction to PC Hardware & Lab 4
ENG-080 Evolving English * (if required) (4)
PDT-115 College Research & Study Skills 4
TCT-100 Telecommunications TechnologyI & Lab 4

TERM 2 16 (20) Total Credits
Course Code Course Title Credit Hours
CIT-102 Introduction to PC Operating Software & Lab 4
ENG-135 English Composition 4
POL-210 Political Science 4
MTH-080 Technical Mathematics * (if required) (4)
TCT-110 Intro. to Data Communications & Lab 4

TERM 3 16 Total Credits
Course Code Course Title Credit Hours
CIT-210 Intro. to Database Management & Lab 4
ENG-155 Advanced English Composition 4
HUM-110 History of Technology 4
SEC-130 Intro. to Information Security & Lab 4

TERM 4 16 Total Credits
Course Code Course Title Credit Hours
CIT-230 Network Administration I & Lab 4
MTH-135 College Algebra 4
SEC-145 Intrusion Detection & Lab 4
SPH-305 Speech Communications 4

TERM 5 16 Total Credits
Course Code Course Title Credit Hours
BUS-100 Business Fundamentals 4
MTH-140 Intermediate College Algebra 4
SEC-250 Network Security & Lab 4
SEC-255 Security Design & Lab 4

TERM 6 20 Total Credits
Course Code Course Title Credit Hours
CIT-235 Network Systems Admin. II & Lab 4
CIT-330 WANs & Internetworking I & Lab 4
ENG-300 Professional Writing 4
PHL-260 Ethics 4
SEC-260 Cryptography & Lab 4

TERM 7 16 Total Credits
Course Code Course Title Credit Hours
CIT-220 Local Area Networks II 4
CIT-353 Understanding UNIX 4
PMT-310 Project Management & Lab 4
SEC-270 WAN Security & Lab 4

TERM 8 16 Total Credits
Course Code Course Title Credit Hours
CIT-420 Network Management I & Lab 4
SEC-275 Server Security & Lab 4
SEC-280 Disaster Recovery & Lab 4
SEC-285 Web Security & Lab 4

TERM 9 16 Total Credits
Course Code Course Title Credit Hours
HUM-200 Humanities in Technology 4
PHY-101 Applied Physics 4
SEC-300 UNIX/Linux Security & Lab 4
SEC-305 Computer Forensics & Lab 4

TERM 10 16 Total Credits
Course Code Course Title Credit Hours
BUS-405 Cyber Law 4
PDT-425 Career Strategies 4
SEC-310 Perimeter Security & Lab 4
SEC-315 Network Security & Lab 4

TERM 11 16 Total Credits
Course Code Course Title Credit Hours
PMT-410 Applied Project Management: Senior Project I & Lab 4
SEC-320 Security Penetration & Lab 4
SEC-330 Wireless Security & Lab 4
SOC-300 Cultural Sociology 4

TERM 12 16 Total Credits
Course Code Course Title Credit Hours
BUS-435 Business Planning 4
HUM-300 Global History & Technology 4
SEC-490 Future Security Technology Topics & Lab 4
SEC-499 Senior Project II 4

Not to be negative but...

if i read that correctly, that's about 24-8 hours days of course work (4 credit hours per course?). Less than a month. What I'd call a basic introduction.

Are you saying that CIT-353 Understanding UNIX is a four hour course?? (I've been using computers for near 25 years and I still don't understand UNIX. :)

And I don't see a single Securing a Windows Network course. real world? If you are an ITSec guy...you'll be securing a winnet...almost guaranteed.

Aside from that

I've employed (note past tense here) several graduates of various technical schools and colleges and from my experience, the knowledge they come out of school with is so broad and so shallow that i've pretty much determined not to pay any attention to a degree when I do my next hire. I want real world experience. I've had 0 school training and yet I single handedly run a 40 machine win network over 2 vpn connected locations, have custom designed all of our process and order software and designed and maintained our eCommerce site which does mid 7 figures a year.

What I want for my next hire is more me. Someone who can look at a system or chunk of code and intuit what's wrong. Someone with a "feel". A problem solver, not a problem maker. My last guy with 2 certs basically would look at problem for 5 minutes, then call me and say "yep...it's broken...I'm out of ideas" Usually a 5 minute fix on my part. I've just spent 3 weeks rewriting an intelligent agent using coldfusion that a previous hire had spent 6 months writing in java (and it never did work properly)

That said, overviews are great and good luck. Get your Cert but hang out here and at as many other sites in your field of interest as you can, post, question, learn.

You'll likely learn far more applicable knowledge on the good ol' interweb than in any classroom. How many hundreds of years real world ITSec experience do just the people here have to draw upon. No course will even begin to approach that.

ENG-080 Evolving English
PDT-115 College Research & Study Skills
ENG-135 English Composition
POL-210 Political Science
ENG-155 Advanced English Composition
ENG-300 Professional Writing
PHL-260 Ethics
SOC-300 Cultural Sociology

These look like electives to me. Part of the "core" I suppose. I guess colleges are still pushing for the 'well-rounded' student. I couldn't stand that about college. Taking classes that have no bearing what-so-ever on my major. It looks like the rest of your classes are quite impressive NetSecExpert. Curious what college you're going to as this puts my college's IT program to shame. In any event, good luck.

note - Zigar, I'm a network admin now full-time (no schooling for it). Learned on the fly after being thrown into a network (and told "you'um fix'em now'em") at my night job a few years ago. Hands-on experience blows any degree away.

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Originally posted here by ShagDevil
ENG-080 Evolving English
PDT-115 College Research & Study Skills
ENG-135 English Composition
POL-210 Political Science
ENG-155 Advanced English Composition
ENG-300 Professional Writing
PHL-260 Ethics
SOC-300 Cultural Sociology

These look like electives to me. Part of the "core" I suppose. I guess colleges are still pushing for the 'well-rounded' student. I couldn't stand that about college. Taking classes that have no bearing what-so-ever on my major. It looks like the rest of your classes are quite impressive NetSecExpert. Curious what college you're going to as this puts my college's IT program to shame. In any event, good luck.

note - Zigar, I'm a network admin now full-time (no schooling for it). Learned on the fly after being thrown into a network (and told "you'um fix'em now'em") at my night job a few years ago. Hands-on experience blows any degree away.

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Those classes are because he's getting a bachelor's degree, not an associates. Many businesses like well rounded employees just as much as colleges do.

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Learned on the fly after being thrown into a network (and told "you'um fix'em now'em") at my night job a few years ago. Hands-on experience blows any degree away.

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heh.. ya nothing like that call..

"uh...the server's down... there's 40 people standing around with nothing to do...how long is it going to take??"

you learn -quick-

I applaud the course for offering english and specifically a professional writing course... documentation is so critical...and so few these days can do it...

Hey ...there is no harm in getting a degree...could come in very handy later in life

Cant hurt ;)

I was offered a opportunity with MS years ago......didnt get it because of no university\college degree...now I think as long as I had ANY degree...liberal arts etc....I would have had more of a chance

I too am self taught..with some old certs

...but feel I may have missed some opportunities due to lack of degree....

Oh well ..live and learn.... :p

MLF

I would agree with MLF on this one... If you have a degree in ANYTHING you have a good chance of getting a job in something. Not because of knowledge, but because of being able to think at a higher level. They look for critical thinking skills, not knowledge. Unfortunately, it's hard to teach the critical thinking skills needed for the IT world, as it's a fairly different approach than any career uses. I'd get the degree, and nab an internship every summer while you are completing it, so that when you finish, you have some knowledge, a degree, and some experience. That combination should play out pretty well. In most industries (especially IT) having hands on experience is the best thing that can happen to you.

The Grunt,

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If you have a degree in ANYTHING you have a good chance of getting a job in something

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It all depends on the degree these days. Buddy of mine graduated college (good school too) with a business degree, 2 years ago, and he's still looking for work. As for the job I just recently got (network admin), the two other candidates had 4 year degrees in Networking. I myself, only have a 2 year degree (not in Networking) & yet, I managed to get the job over them, simply because I could answer the technical question part of the interview better then they could. (How do I know? My deputy director told me). Like you said though, the IT world is in it's own world :eek:

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Those classes are because he's getting a bachelor's degree, not an associates

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Not sure where I indicated I thought he was getting a 2 year degree? In any event, when I got my first IT job (mainframe programmer), the only reason I was hired was because I had a technical diploma from a technical school specific to mainframe programming (not because of my college degree). My boss didn't want well-rounded, he wanted someone who could do the job (which is why he refused to hire college grads). So again, it's all dependent on the company and what they're looking for.

In regards to what Zigar said:
This is not 4 hours for each class, each class listed on here you are enrolled for 3 months (for 4 years 16 credits every 3months and total of 192 credits). This school goes under the cirriculum of the NSA and Infosec.
I actually decided to go back to school since my job is pay 90% and I am in a management role and I need that paper that says I have a bachelors. It stinks you need the paper, but that is the reality of it. I do have 5 years security experience in fortune 500 companies in NY and on top of that I have many certs such as CISSP, SANS GSEC, CCNA, microsoft certs, security +, CNA and others.

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Originally posted here by ShagDevil
The Grunt,

It all depends on the degree these days. Buddy of mine graduated college (good school too) with a business degree, 2 years ago, and he's still looking for work. As for the job I just recently got (network admin), the two other candidates had 4 year degrees in Networking. I myself, only have a 2 year degree (not in Networking) & yet, I managed to get the job over them, simply because I could answer the technical question part of the interview better then they could. (How do I know? My deputy director told me). Like you said though, the IT world is in it's own world :eek:


Not sure where I indicated I thought he was getting a 2 year degree? In any event, when I got my first IT job (mainframe programmer), the only reason I was hired was because I had a technical diploma from a technical school specific to mainframe programming (not because of my college degree). My boss didn't want well-rounded, he wanted someone who could do the job (which is why he refused to hire college grads). So again, it's all dependent on the company and what they're looking for.

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Business degrees pretty much suck. They are the exception to the rule of having a college degree helps net any job. If you have a science degree, you can get a business job, if you have a business degree, you can't get a science job. I'll recomend to anyone not to get a business degree. There's no reason.

The difference between an associates and a bachelor's is in the amount of work you do AND the amount of things not associated with your major. Thats what separates those degree programs.

And yeah, it's company dependent, but I would say for most long term jobs where you will be doing more than just working with a network, they want you to be well rounded, as they will want you to do a little bit of management, a little bit of communication with the higher ups, etc.


@NetSecExpert: With that experience, I think getting a degree would DEFINITELY be in your best interest. Then you'll have the paper and the experience, which I would say will probably net you a job doing just about whatever you want.

Zigar

Is this the reason you got on my back for going back to school.

I've had 0 school training and yet I single handedly run a 40 machine win network over 2 vpn connected locations, have custom designed all of our process and order software and designed and maintained our eCommerce site which does mid 7 figures a year.


Believe me it is not what I call fun having to go back to school, but my job is requiring it since now business is an important part of being a Security Officer for a bank and we all know how risk management and business processes are an important role for a bank.

I don't think Zigar was getting on your back, he was just pointing out what more of the people that are doing the hiring (like me) these days are starting to look at. A piece of paper is nice, but it really doesn't show me what you can do or have done, I look at the experience. My company has a policy to where we are suppose to hire people with degree's or certs, I am the only person who is the exception to that rule, I hire the person that can do the damm job.


Cheers:

geez... netsec

that's 2 threads from you i've seen today that you've taken offense to something that was not said in any way meant to be taken as a flame...

you'll need a bit thicker skin around here me thinks

now to your point

firstly..I was relating my experience as someone who might be hiring some person (or perhaps you) For the most part, I do not care about a piece of paper. If that piece of paper taught you the skills to answer the questions I'm going to ask and the situations I deal with everyday then that's great. It was worth it. Otherwise, my company is not a corporate monolith where you (not -you- specifically...you, the employee) can hide amongst the cubicles and get by by not being noticed. Your paper will not save you.

Secondly, You did post that courses were worth 4 "Credit Hours". To me that says hours, but I don't know how the schooling system works wherever you are so that's why I qualified it with "if i read that correctly" FWIW I know there are computer courses that people (who have applied to work for me) take only DO offer 4 hours instruction per subject and those are specifically not worth the paper they are written on.

Lastly it sounds like you're pissed at having to get this peice of paper...well I'd be too but hey, if it's what you want to do (your current job) then you do it. Of course Five years of real world without the cert would likely get you a job a my company :D

(ps...I could have negged you for that post but hey I've got a thick skin..been here a long time...been in IT longer...)

NetSecExpert,
Believe it or not, we're just trying to help you out through our own experiences. Some of us think you should get a degree, some of us may not. Zigar was by no way or means trying to insult you, nor was I or anyone else here. We're just telling you how things are from our perspectives.
Leave it to the damn IT professionals to be *****s (although we're paid to be *****s :eek: ). Seriously though, your program looks good. I don't see any harm in following that curriculum. It's ultimately up to you though. No matter what you choose to do, good luck.

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Business degrees pretty much suck

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LOL.

Isn't it a chicken and egg situation? If employers want to hire folks who have experience, how do they gain that experience without proving that they know some basics? It's all very well having a home setup with a couple of PCs set up with a router that you administer but how do you get your hands on a big system to prove, and improve, your abilities?

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Originally posted here by Ignatius
Isn't it a chicken and egg situation? If employers want to hire folks who have experience, how do they gain that experience without proving that they know some basics? It's all very well having a home setup with a couple of PCs set up with a router that you administer but how do you get your hands on a big system to prove, and improve, your abilities?

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The helpdesk.

The curriculum seems to be OK...as best a college/university can be these days with technology related degrees.

My vote for you is to get the degree, otherwise you might (not always) hit a glass ceiling career-wise that can only be broken by a college degree. Which is not right IMO but sometimes that's how it is.

Incidently, I have done a fair amount of hiring of tech pros in my time and never pass up a resume just because they dont have a degree.

That does sound true, but in my case if my job is to pay for it and I'm only 2 years away from getting it why not.

Netsec:

If your job requires it to advance then get it... But, as others have related I will relate a similar vein. I had Human Resources locate any phrase containing the words "degree" and "required" in the same sentence in all job descriptions for the IT department and have it either totally removed or replaced with a phrase indicating that any kind of degree might be "nice" but it surely isn't required... trust me... it isn't... experience in the real world is...

Just adding to the consensus here... not starting any wars... ;)

I have to think the people that don't think there is value in a bachelor's degree don't work in the the large corporate world. In our IT organization a lot of our techs have in excess of 25 years experience and have masters degree's or MBA's. I'm talking about technical people here, not just the managers...

You would be very hard pressed to end up making in excess of $100k a year without atleast a bachelors degree. I'm sure if you look at the numbers most people making in excess of 6 figures have masters.

If you are ok with being a system administrator for a small company and making 45k, the degree is worthless. But if you have experience and the degree you will find a lot more higher paying opportunities are available. You have to remember that in most large companies, the actual hiring manager only has about a 25% input into who is hired. Most of the decisions are made by HR people. And they love certifications and degrees because they don't really know how to quantify experience.

I would say that if you have several years of experience, and already have some certifications, a bachelors in business, network/security management, or CIS/MIS of some sort is absolutely essential to make career advancements.

If you know that all you want to be is a tech, and you don't ever want to have any more responsibility than replacing that bad hardware, upgrading software, or installing patches, it certainly isn't critical. I would always be wary of the people that say it is completely pointless, or the people that place undue emphasis on any form of learning. All learning is good learning.

Just another point.. The type of degree, as some people have said, is sometimes irrelevant. I've talked to many recruiters that prefer to deal with people that have a bachelors in liberal arts, with experience and IT certifications over a person with an IT BS, experience and certs. The reason being that many recruiters feel that people with non technical degrees are usually more people oriented, and can handle difficult human interactions better. Which is probably true more often than not. I've come across plenty of techs that have absolutely no people skills. If you don't put them in a job where they are locked in a room with some computers and a soda machine, the can't handle the human interaction.