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IP = ID?? How can this be possible?
A man in WNY was arrested and sentenced to a year in jail over an email with the sole piece of evidence being an IP address? (- and a wireless IP address at that?! -)
How can they determine from an IP address who in the house or on a network is actually on the computer?
Can anyone explain this to me?
:confused:
The NSA and the Homeland Security Act make it so. Maybe the perp didn't fancy a holiday in Cuba?............... maybe they just beat a fess out of him with a length of pressure hose?Quote:
IP = ID?? How can this be possible?
Errr, excuse me, in a civilised country you would be arrested, charged, arraigned, tried, judged, then sentenced or aquitted ;)Quote:
A man in WNY was arrested and sentenced to a year in jail over an email with the sole piece of evidence being an IP address?
Also, to obtain a conviction in a civilised society, you need to satisfy the Court as to:
1. Opportunity
2. Ability
3. Motive
There is no such thing. An IP address is an IP address.......... period.Quote:
(- and a wireless IP address at that?! -)
If it is your house and your network, why should they care? you are guilty until proven innocent. It is the same as if your handgun is used in a crime, or your automobile.Quote:
How can they determine from an IP address who in the house or on a network is actually on the computer?
The onus of proof is on you..........
So they (FBI, CIA, etc…) intercepted an email with incriminating evidence and arrested a guy with an IP address? Do I have that all right? Seems to me if they intercepted an email, they wouldn’t need an IP to convict him, you can see who owns the email address, and go from there!
Sounds like the media got a hold of this story =)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArPaNET
Email addresses can be forged as much as IP. But since the 4th Amendment has been rather raped, it seems silly to assume that the US will follow the rule of law. :P
They can determine who the IP address belongs to (or belonged to at the time of the crime) by getting a subpoena to have the ISP turn over the data linking the IP address to an ISP account. They cannot, of course, determine from that data alone who was actually using the computer. If someone was actually sentenced to 1 year in prison based on an incriminating e-mail, I'm sure the prosecutor had more on the plaintiff than just the IP connection (a confession, more than likely...).Quote:
IP = ID?? How can this be possible?
A man in WNY was arrested and sentenced to a year in jail over an email with the sole piece of evidence being an IP address? (- and a wireless IP address at that?! -)
How can they determine from an IP address who in the house or on a network is actually on the computer?
considering that they are intercepting encrypted emails and decrypting them, I am sure they are "going by the book" on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by MsMittens
I really dont think we have the full story though...
Quote:
Do I have that all right? Seems to me if they intercepted an email, they wouldn’t need an IP to convict him, you can see who owns the email address, and go from there!
I would have thought that a far more likely scenario is someone receives an offensive e-mail and reports it to the authorities.Quote:
considering that they are intercepting encrypted emails and decrypting them, I am sure they are "going by the book" on this one.
A one year sentence is trivial by US standards so it cannot have been very serious?
Hardly enough to merit Federal involvement or "interception"?
I think that is very true! :DQuote:
I really dont think we have the full story though...
=) well played sir!
every mail sent ( by any computer using whether an pc or laptop , using either lan,internet connection or wireless connection) has an ip address i.e. from which ip address it is origianting or sent to any body.
from this ip address one can find out the exact location of the ip address.
as all ip address are registered.
You cannot possibly be that retarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by raveesh
IP addresses are nothing but network addresses, that in many cases do not correspond in any really meningful way to a geographical location.
They can be spoofed, hidden, etc. Especially in the context of SMTP.
When you are assigned an IP address by your ISP it does pinpoint you to a geographical location as they know what end node was assigned that ip address. The then cross reference that with their accounting database and they have your address.
Dumbass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Net2Infinity
The IP still does not identify you geographically.
It is no different than a phone number... just because you can look up the address it goes to, does not mean that there is any relation between the address and the assigned phone number, short of a very general location.
That is correctQuote:
every mail sent ( by any computer using whether an pc or laptop , using either lan,internet connection or wireless connection) has an ip address i.e. from which ip address it is origianting or sent to any body.
from this ip address one can find out the exact location of the ip address.
as all ip address are registered.
That is also correctQuote:
When you are assigned an IP address by your ISP it does pinpoint you to a geographical location as they know what end node was assigned that ip address. The then cross reference that with their accounting database and they have your address.
However, both premises are oversimplifications, as they are only a partial view of the real World of the internet.
In the first proposition, it is true that the contact can be resolved to the IP, but that will normally only get you as far as the provider (ISP). You would need access to the ISP's logs and other records to get any further.
So, this (the ISP logs) will get you as far as a compromised machine, a wireless hotspot, a public library............... but no idea of the identity of the user at that point in time.
In the second proposition, there is an underlying assumption that the ISP actually "knows" the user.
Certainly, they will know who the provided the service and IP address to, at that point in time, but how useful is that?.
1. Compromised computer
2. Stolen identity
3. Free wireless node
4. Unsecured wireless node
5. Public Libraries
6. False name and address to open a genuine account
7. Internet cafe
8. Anonymous proxy
9. Webmail providers
10. Anonymous mailers
and so on........................ sure they all point to somebody, but to who? ......... not the person who actually did it :D
Nihil, there is still a critical distinction between being able to pinpoint a geographic location from an IP, and being able to subpeona some records as to what physical location recieved that IP.
THe fact of the matter is, the IP does not resolve to anything more than a very general area, if that is even correct. The fact that you can get ISP records to match it with a physical location is another matter entirely, that has nothing to do with the addressing scheme.
Not clarifying this, only perpetuates the myth that an IP is some "magicaL" address that needs to be kept "secret" at all costs. It is simply a network address... nothing more, nothing less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by D0pp139an93r
How does this make me a dumbass? Heck you agreed that I was right ... lol.
You are correct that people shouldn't perceive an IP address as a guarded secret.
That is exactly the point I was trying to support your argument on. The first poster was talking about the first point and the second about the records trail? Obviously they are separate concepts, though might be connected, given the right circumstances?Quote:
Nihil, there is still a critical distinction between being able to pinpoint a geographic location from an IP, and being able to subpeona some records as to what physical location recieved that IP.
Let's try some examples that people can look at for themselves? [ Sorry for those who know all this, but we do have students, newcomers to the subject, and the like who might benefit from developing this discussion a bit further]
My provider is BritishTelecom, I guess they are the largest in the UK. As my profile states I live in Bridlington............. that is on the bit to the left of this post, and in my profile.
It is a town of about 32,000 on the East Coast of Northern England (about half way up, and on the right, to our putative US Army types :lildevil:)
My IP address is : 81.152.9.99
Now, just go check that:
Here are some links to tools and resources:
http://www.dnsstuff.com/
http://samspade.org/
Then look at a map of the UK :D
//aside
Any good links to lookup facilities that are current, folks? //
EXAMPLE #2
Try checking an AOL account e-mail. Because of their network architecture, you will be sent to one of their switching centres. No locational relevance; as they seem to use some sort of load balancing system (well that is a little while back, but the architecture is still there)
EXAMPLE#3
Road Runner........... (beep! beep!) that resolves to Virginia :D try it folks................
I am sure that fellow members will provide other examples?
Hey, Doppy, I guess this thread is talkin its way into "Forensics"? :D
I did not agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Net2Infinity
Nihil... I've seen IPs resolve to completely different continents. :P
You agreed you can determine a physical address based on subpoenaing the ISP records for an IP address.
You have to subpeona the records because the IP does not correspond to a geographic location.Quote:
Originally Posted by Net2Infinity
Oh yes! ........... sometimes mine will resolve to Fernando del Rey (California?) which must be at least 6,000 miles away :DQuote:
Nihil... I've seen IPs resolve to completely different continents. :P
Another thing to consider is the ISP's architecture and modus operandi. The closest you would get to me is about 70 miles, as that is the nearest "node", but a lot of ISPs have some sort of load balancing, so you don't always get connected to the same node.
Yes, the point I would make is that although you appear to get a geographic location, it is actually an administrative address belonging to the ISP, and NOT the user.Quote:
You have to subpeona the records because the IP does not correspond to a geographic location.
Basically, the internet was designed for communication, rather than traceability. In that respect it is rather like snail mail........... you can initially tell the sorting office that processed the item, but that is all.
I just wish I knew who owned the ip address 127.0.0.1
They're responsible for an awful lot of problems.
Steve
That would be me.
for the first time ever!!! EVER!!! i'll have to agree with nihil on this one. An IP is an IP wireless or not. raveesh am sorry but that just isn't true. a scenario where your behind a router & firewall (properly configed) would make it really hard to get a location. but if you insist give me your routers IP and i'll prove it to your :)
UK ISP's (and probably all of the larger ISP's in the world) subnet their IP allocations down to geographical regions. Some are starting to publish this breakdown via web services to allow other automated entities to have a better idea of the location of the IP.
Static IP's and a different story altogether and probably around 60% of them can be tracked to an address.
So yes a normal IP can be tracked to an ISP and if the ISP has made the info available, then the normal home users' DHCP IP can further be tied down to a specific area within the country.
A properly configured router and firewall or a badly configured router and firewall have nothing to do with determining the location of an IP address.Quote:
a scenario where your behind a router & firewall (properly configed) would make it really hard to get a location
Realistically speaking, you can trace an IP to a geographic location in many circumstances. I use ADSL broadband and can connect either wired or wireless. I can only access my account via my telephone line which has a fixed number, directly linked to my geographical location (my actual house).
My ISP will know what IP address is assigned to this telephone line at any point in time. Whilst that doesn't prove who was using the link at the time, it would give me some explaining to do?
My ISP has millions of addresses, and you are given a different one each time you log in. Sure, someone could spoof an address out of their block, but the chances of it being assigned to me at that point in time are literally millions to one.
Unfortunately, we don't have any details, but from the sentence it sounds as if the accused violated some sort of court restraining order and did not try to disguise themselves?
Typically IP addresses are only one piece of evidence. No, IP addresses won't identify a user, but other circumstances often will. I'm reminded of an ISP in southern Kentucky that got subpoenaed for their logs. One of their subscribers had levied a death threat against a lawyer via a Hotmail acc't. The lawyer called up insisting on getting the name matching that particular ip addy, and when the ISP didn't hand it over, a subpoena came over the fax 20 minutes later.
The subscriber was convicted of issuing the death threat. He had the motive (he lost a case to that attorney) and the ip addy was matched to his acc't. Logs don't lie, generally. I don't know what other evidence the authorities got, but I imagine there might've been cookies, temp files, and lots of other goodies on the PC. I do know motive and an ip address can go a long way in court. Happens every day...
edit -- the ISP uses PPPoE. So there's a log not only with an IP, but also a user name. Having said that, not all broadband connections are created equal. Had a tech at Alltel tell me one time there were nine different kinds of DSL, so I'm sure there's a variance of logs depending on any ISP's given connection technology.
How can you make such a long thread when the info that was given was this!Quote:
Originally Posted by cobrajet
150.200.88.31
OrgName: Missouri Western State College
OrgID: MWSC
Address: Computer Center
Address: 4525 Downs Drive , LRC 110
City: St. Joseph
StateProv: MO
PostalCode: 64507
Country: US
pretty specific...
Actually there were two IP addresses, apparently neither account was in the accused's name. One account was in WNY and the other in SC.
Not really, that is a college with a large block of IP addresses. Anyway, it is in MO.Quote:
pretty specific...
Without seeing a detailed report or a transcript of the actual case it is hard to determine what the prosecution case and evidence was.
ravenshee u r the man and what if the man was hidding over an non secure wifi ... who would be in jain ? the wifi owner ??? the wifi itself ?? the computer ??? .... an ip to incriminate someone ( in my opinion of course ) is not enough .... ( what if the machine was compromised like a backdoor a ssh account compromised ..... this damn **** only happens on USA .
lol
Hello SharPleX, and welcome back.
You will report to the AO adjutant ("Exec" for our American colleagues) at 06.00 tomorrow to explain your prolonged absence without leave. :lildevil:
Unfortunately this is not true! It certainly happens over here in the UK and in the rest of Western Europe. I would hazard a guess that we could include Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and possibly Japan?Quote:
this damn **** only happens in the USA
The problems as I see them are:
1. Courts don't understand IT technicalities.
2. Law enforcement don't understand IT technicalities.
3. Users don't understand IT technology.
4. Juries don't understand IT technology.
5. Lawyers don't understand IT technology.
Now, you just imagine that scenario, and factor in a child pornography charge?
In many places that makes you "guilty until proven innocent" which is the wrong way round?
And if you want India to become another Zimbabwe, just continue with your current mindset;)
Oh yea, and what exactly did the court find him convicted of? #2 A mere IP address is NOT enough evidence to convict him/her of a computer crime. He could have easily said my systems security was breached someone hacked into my computer to do their dirty work from my PC I was a VICTIM not the culprit. ;) I've been through the legal system a few times so I kind of now what works and what doesn't. On a side note, do you know how easy it is to spoof an IP address/break into someones PC and use their system to do your dirty work it's not very hard. ;)Quote:
IP = ID?? How can this be possible?
A man in WNY was arrested and sentenced to a year in jail over an email with the sole piece of evidence being an IP address? (- and a wireless IP address at that?! -)
All they can do is a *WHOIS* query on the IP address and see WHO the IP address belongs too. (which isp) not which individual user was on. They cannot tell if it was tyrone smith or his grandma all they know is someone was on that computer using an IP that belonged to their ISP.Quote:
How can they determine from an IP address who in the house or on a network is actually on the computer?
PS; Maybe in the UK it works like that but over here in the states it's all evidence your innocent until proven guilty. Just because the cops arrest you those are *booking charges* doesn't mean your guilty or convicted of those charges those are only ARREST charges.
CN22, I hear what you are saying:
What happens over here is that as soon as it is Kiddie Pr0n on the agenda, due process takes a hike?Quote:
PS; Maybe in the UK it works like that but over here in the states it's all evidence your innocent until proven guilty. Just because the cops arrest you those are *booking charges* doesn't mean your guilty or convicted of those charges those are only ARREST charges.
Like "circumstantial" becomes "the word of God"
:mad:
6. IT don't understand IT technology.Quote:
1. Courts don't understand IT technicalities.
2. Law enforcement don't understand IT technicalities.
3. Users don't understand IT technology.
4. Juries don't understand IT technology.
5. Lawyers don't understand IT technology.
:D
I think that last statement is in-correct. Not all lawyers understand I.T since their career is (law) and not IT. However, there ARE Lawyers out there who are experienced in computer crimes, they know IT more than you realize. I sure wouldn't under estimate anyone thats one of the stupidest mistakes you can make. Even though they specialize in 'LAW' some of them do know and understand IT. IMO, all attorneys are scumbag *******s. And from my personal experience with them and from what I've seen if you have the cash they can pretty much get you off the hook and away with a lot of stuff that you wouldn't even believe.Quote:
5. Lawyers don't understand IT technology.
Back to Nihil; In the court of law in the states it's usually evidence is the key role in a conviction of a crime. If theres
not enough evidence to prove that you are guilty well they can easily dismiss the case and your off the hook. However, if you take it to trial and you know your guilty of the crime instead of a taking a plea deal (aka lighter sentence for you) if you take it to trial and LOOSE the judges usually give you maximum. Why? cause you could have just taken a plea deal and not waste the courts time by having a trial. A PD A public defender could come to an agreement with the States attorneys office to reduce the sentence on the culprit.
btw;
To have a trial it cost a lot $$$$$$$$ lawyers, experts on the stand, witnesses, judges , attorneys jurors etc...
thats why a lot of people take ple deals for a lighter sentence. Also, the charges cops arrest you on aka (booking charges) can always change when the state attorneys office (court) gets a hold of the papers either being more serious or charges getting reduced.
i am a complete newb at this, but there seems to be a lot of interesting things centered around a simple ip address. i do have a question though. my isp, time warner, gave me a cable modem and basically said heres your internet, u can keep your email address and what not. now my thing is can what difference is that to dial up, where your isp makes u log in to use ur internet? where its like they can basically see everything u do. does having an always on connection give you more privacy or is just the same. i hear your isp can essentially read your emails, from the little i do know. having a hotmail account is on a totally different server and one would assume the lines are encrypted. so in any case can your isp basically spy on you
One of my friends' kids was convicted on gun/drug charges and he onlyQuote:
Originally Posted by nihil
got 10 months here in the States. He was buying guns left and right
for a drug gang to sell. Put a lot of hardware on the street, he did,
mate. Glad it wasn't serious. Violent criminals tend to get off a bit
easier here. Still...it would be enough to give you a complex about
taking a "shower". Especially if you were in your 20's. I knew one
of the Clark boys who did a stint in the state pen here in Shawnee
country. Young guy. Came out with ALL his front teeth missing, top
and bottom. It ain't like the movies. It's uglier.
As for lawyers, there are some good, honest ones. Brings to mind an old one-liner: 98% of lawyers give the rest of them a bad name.