How do I hack Hotmail, AOL etc?

Subtitle: Wireless Oakland is piloting and I need to warn my users....

Since I use very few of the "free" email services, (Hotmail, AOL, etc.), Instant Messengers, (Yahoo, MSN etc.), I want to check my facts about the transmission forms of these systems which are the predominant vehicles of communication for many.

My questions are:-

1. Do any of the standard "free" email systems generally encrypt their transmissions "out of the box" of are they simply an HTTP transfer in clear text.

2. Which of the "free" email systems come "out of the box" with unencrypted logins?

3. Which of the "free" email systems allow you to "upgrade" to a secure login but then revert back to "in clear" HTTP?

4. Which of the "free" email systems allow you to switch everything to an encrypted connection for all transactions and remember it for every time you connect?

5. Can you answer the same questions for the common IM programs that everyone's kids use?

6. Can you list any other concerns regarding "in clear transmissions" over a public wireless network that the general users would fall foul of that will really scare the BeJabers out of them.... :D

5. I do not know about login sessions, but all chats are clear text unless you specifically set up AIM to be encrypted. MSN and Yahoo don't have any first party encryption, but there are 3rd party tools, only problem being both sides of the conversation must be using the software.

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2. Which of the "free" email systems come "out of the box" with unencrypted logins?

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Both yahoo and hotmail/msn mail, out of the box, sign in is unencrypted. They both offer a higher level of secure login using SSL. This is an option available at the login prompt but I do know where your going with this. ;)

See attached screeny.

1. I know traditionally they caught a lot of heat for not having encrypted login sessions. I just tried to hit up my ancient aol account via web and got the https connection.

6. You may want to let your users know that a link in a chat program is as dangerous or more so than one on a webpage. The chat programs normally have some FTP service built in and can cause some major issues.



Cheers,

The_Captain

Grunt: Thanks...

Jinx: Ya... Cool... But then they revert to in clear transmission of the mail itself so I can sniff it and read their mail right.... Stalking anyone... :rolleyes:

Captain: Okay, but does it go back to HTTP after that. Thanks for the file transfer heads up - I forgot about that one.... MITM comes to mind too.... :mad:

I looked into this a while back for hotmail/msn and I'm pretty sure that the login is encrypted with SSL. The main page isn't, but the credentials aren't sent until the https session is established. I'll load it up on a machine with ethereal later on tonight and check again.

Yes, as soon as I logged it my mailbox and everything were back in http.

I then tried the little used AIM Express which I would normally think is a really bad idea, it's basically a web version of AIM. Using netstat I saw it was connected with http after a secure login, but it does not give the file transfer capability of normal AIM.

I know I've been over this before, (search for Kurt Hack here on AO), but this is going to be a real mess isn't it?

I just did a search and read the wireless plan. Please tell me they're not still going ahead with that?

Never mind, i guess that's the point of this thread. I would just tell the wireless users they're screwed. Do they have any plan for bleedover into businesses?

It's piloting soon in several communities in Oakland County.... I recently moved to Macomb county... :D

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But then they revert to in clear transmission of the mail itself so I can sniff it and read their mail right.... Stalking anyone.

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This is where, I new you would be going :D

Ok, this is what I have written to my users:-

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For those of you that live and/or work in Oakland County this is a warning. It is long but you really do need to read it and understand it’s implications.

Wireless Oakland – that brilliant idea by a computer illiterate politician and his less than security minded IT advisors to make him look good and “trendy” – is piloting in areas of Oakland County. This has serious security implications for both home users and businesses. I have argued at length with one of it’s proponents, a local councilman, and it is clear that, no matter what security minded IT professionals say to him he doesn’t care about the havoc his “baby” will potentially wreak on the taxpayers of Oakland County. But enough of my vehement opposition to this entire project, you all need to be aware of the threat to your privacy and personal security.

What Wireless Oakland will do is to cover all of Oakland County with a wireless internet access “cloud” for public use. This means that anyone living in or just driving through Oakland County can connect to the internet while they are within the “cloud”. The big issue is that because the “cloud” is public they cannot place any kind of security such as encrypted connections because it would be pointless – everyone would have to know the key so there is no point issuing one. This means that unless individuals protect themselves appropriately online while connected through the “cloud” they will be vulnerable to numerous forms of attack on their privacy. Without proper care this lack of privacy could escalate into more serious issues such as stalking and the resulting potential for physical harm. I’m not simply being a scare-monger here, believe me, I can see a huge potential for “cyber stalking” with very little skill required on the part of a perpetrator which would be very difficult for the police to determine the occurrence of and even more difficult for them to prevent. There is also a colossal potential for identity theft – again with very little skill required by the perpetrator.

Why is this all so easy? Because things in the computer world are simply not set up to be secure when everyone can see the transmission which is what a wireless cloud will do. Many of you use email services such as AOL, Hotmail, Yahoo to send and receive your email. Many of the common web based email services give you that nice “warm, fuzzy” feeling by making you log in via an encrypted login. This is all well and good, (and remember many don’t encrypt the login so anyone could see your login and password and hijack your account at will – the evil minded amongst you can work out where things can go from there), but once you have authenticated to the system they revert to sending your mail backwards and forwards in “clear”. Anyone close by in the wireless “cloud” can see everything you send and receive. Yes, your neighbors, the kid across the street or the guy driving by with malicious intent. The same thing applies to your kids using their favorite Instant Messenger program such as Yahoo, MSN etc. Everything going backwards and forwards can be read by anyone.

If you chose to use the Wireless Oakland system you need to be aware that you have no privacy or security unless you provide it for yourself. Needless to say, properly securing your transmissions is much more complicated than it sounds and the potential for a mistake is high. Additionally you will need to learn to properly secure your computer itself. If you don’t, or make a mistake, you computer could be accessible to anyone who is close by in the wireless cloud. That means that everything you have on your computer, (personal banking, taxes, letters etc.), could be viewed by anyone who chooses to. I don’t think I need to say more about what can happen with that – but remember that a malicious person may have no interest in your stuff, they may just use your computer to commit crimes elsewhere on the internet. No big deal you think? Visits from the FBI aren’t fun and your kids will complain insistently that you need to go and buy a new computer to replace the one the FBI just impounded.

The clever ones amongst you might think that they don’t need to worry because you already have your own wireless network so you won’t be using Wireless Oakland. Wrong! Fifty percent of you are already vulnerable to a small scale version of the other threats because you haven’t secured your wireless network. But it gets worse… Many computer systems that are “wireless aware” will connect to any network available. Whether you secured your wireless network or not if the Wireless Oakland antennas, (pots), are close enough to your house they will become the primary signal and the risk is high that your computer will automatically connect to the insecure Wireless Oakland network exposing you to all the threats. Even if it doesn’t automatically connect to Wireless Oakland there will come a day when your personal network fails and one of your kids will be presented with the choice of connecting to “an available network”…. They will and from then on everything the family does will become public again until you notice, (if you ever do).

The cleverer still will think that you are using wired connections only. Congratulations, that’s the safest way. But when you buy your college kid that spiffy new laptop that is “wireless aware” and tell them they must only connect by using the wired connection just be aware that you should probably make sure they disable the built in wireless device or you could be providing a conduit for anyone to enter your “secure” network.

Businesses and home users could also fall victim to malicious persons hijacking an initial wireless connection and providing fake login screens for things in order to harvest login credentials of users. Especially for businesses with mobile users with newer laptops this is of great concern because these laptops are usually “wireless aware”.

Then, even if you have everything right what happens when Wireless Oakland’s wireless cloud interferes with your private “cloud” to the point where it makes your network unusable? Do you know how to change channels on your network so you can use it again? I didn’t think so. So all that money and time you spent purchasing and setting up your private network will now involve more cost or be worthless because I can assure you Wireless Oakland isn’t going to change channels for you.

If Wireless Oakland puts one of it’s pots on your neighbors roof changing channels may not be possible because their pots will have to be quite a bit more powerful than yours and this will make your network unusable and un-fixable. Lot’s of people will be affected by this because wireless Oakland will need a lot of pots because the signals generated by the wireless cards in your computers have a limited range so they need to have every square inch of Oakland County covered by their pots.

This is a serious situation. The tools required to carry out the malicious acts are publicly available on the internet, free and very easy to use. Anyone can use them. There are a myriad of ways this system can be exploited. You can rest assured that there are many who will be out to exploit them.

Lastly, the company that won the contract is called Michtel. Michtel is a previously bankrupt company, (Michtel Inc.), owned by Netcom LLC. Interestingly enough Michtel has had an operating annual budget that is a mere fraction of what will be required to run Wireless Oakland. They admit to having a larger backer but, for some reason, they will not reveal the identity of that backer. Think about the possibilities of someone who is less than ethical watching everything you do.

The seven pilot projects are located in the communities of Royal Oak, Pontiac, Troy, Birmingham, Madison Heights, Oak Park, and Wixom.

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Feel free to use it if you live or work in Oakland County and feel you can use it to warn others.

OK. Let me play the not so informed user.

Why do I need to worry about the security? I don't care if anyone can see who and what I am doing on IM. I only talk to my friends at school and my parents. There is nothing personal there, right?

I use on line banking and that's secure. I always check to see if the site cert is valid, my bank rep. told me how to check and what to look for.

I don't care if someone knows what web sites I visit.

I use windows xp and it has a firewall and is always updated.

Tiger, my point is you might be going about this the wrong way. How many times has a user told you that they have no personal information on their computer, just to find that IE is holding their usernames and passwords to their bank site and credit card info? When you explained the problem with having IE hold that information, did you get the glazed eye effect?

Perhaps the need to explain why you don't want someone else using your email address is a better approach - Actually I meant additional.

You're fighting the good fight but I'm afraid those you're trying to help don't understand you're trying to help them.

Just my take.

Dino

"you computer could be accessible"

You got a typo .

"it’s pots on your neighbors roof changing channels may not be possible because their pots will have to be quite a bit more powerful than yours and this will make your network unusable and un-fixable."

Shouldn't neighbors be neighboors? And shouldn't it have a possesive ' in there?

You have one here:

"Lot’s of people"


"will be affected by this because wireless Oakland will need a lot of pots because the signals generated by the wireless cards in your computers have a limited range so they need to have every square inch of Oakland County covered by their pots. "

Did it in word huh?

Ok I just finished reading it. That one sentence towards the end has a LOT of periods... Pun maybe? Anyway this doesn't bother me. If anything I have something to do on Saturday nights now when my friends are working. Buahahaha...... Yea I think I set myself up for you to make an example of me.

To ensure all areas are covered with signal they have decided to just implement a wireless ap at each of the starbucks in those counties. That should provide solid coverage. [/sarcasm]


But seriously how did they get this approved? Did they actually bother to let the public know about this idea for a vote or is this more of an action move? I would love to have my city have the ability to fix a lot of other problems before they go into something as luxory as this.

Gore! Really old chap, you weren't thinking of changing all their passwords to KurtHack#0 were you?

Well, after all.............more than 8 characters, upper and lower case, special character and number................they would be bound to be safe?

:D

Tiger,
I appreciate the underlying message you are trying to get across. However, you are pissing in the wind.

As you no doubt know. The internet was never designed with security in mind. All of your fears are well founded but somewhat dated. Due to the way the internet works. It's possible to carry out all the attacks you are complaining about without wifi. Currently these attacks require a level of knowlege and ability above and beyond what would be normal usage. All wifi will do is highlight the short comings of the internet, as is.

This must be a good thing, in the long run. As it will surely make the powers that be take note?

Those that are aware of security will take measures, those that are not will end up getting fecked.Much like the current state of affairs. Just on a bigger scale, perhaps? and maybe on a scale where something will be done to rectify current problem?

Unfortunately I think I agree with Jinxy... But one must try to educate... ignorance is expensive!

I still firmly believe people should have to pass an operators exam and gain a computer licence before embarking on the adventures of touching a keyboard... ;) Let alone wireless!

The intent was not to educate..... Education comes _after_ awareness. Awareness creates interest. You can't teach someone something that they aren't interested in. Once you get their interest then you can educate.... otherwise you are "pissing in the wind"... ;)

Funnily enough it has raised quite a bit of interest amongst my users. Sufficiently so that I was asked to send it to a local technology reporter who I believe is nationally syndicated. After some thought which ended with me thinking that I would be ignored anyway I did. Within 15 minutes I received a message from his Blackberry informing me that he was away on an assignment but that he wanted to discuss this with me on tuesday..... :eek: What did I just do?

Gore: Thanks for the spell/grammar check. Nice pickup on Word but you are wrong I did it in Outlook... so there.... ;)

For those of you not paying attention - There is a "smiley-winkey" thing at the end of that statement.....

I think it would be fine for Gore and his friends to come down here and wreak havoc with this system.... Those who read the "Kurt Hack" thread know I have been vehemently against this since I first heard about it. It angers the hell out of me to see these people feather their own bed at the risk of the taxpayers. There are at least half a million people in Oakland County. Some of those could quite possibly suffer greatly as a result of this "initiative". The question I want the answer to from these people is how many "victims" are acceptable, one, five, one hundred.... all small numbers compated to the population.... What happens if someone dies? or are 5 deaths ok?..... Rant over... I have a bar to build.....

Oh Sorry Tiger Shark, here stupid me thought Outlook used WORD for it's editor ;) Lol.

Gore:

Since you appear to have missed the "smiley-winkey" thing it's really easy to set up Outlook to send/view emails in several different ways..... Course, you being a leet linux kiddie, you might have missed out on the easy configurability, (???? new word????), of windows software.... ;)

Your turn for a dig..... Get your shovel....

Well, since I don't use Lookout, I couldn't tell you. I use Mutt. But when I did use it it used Word for an ed. So do you call everyone that doesn't pay extortion for Office leet Linux kids? I don't make much money which you know already, I've told you exactly what I make a month, so what makes yout hink I'm going to waste.... Hmmm 3 months of pay? To buy Office? And don't tell me about outlook express. That's not a mail client that's a GUI for virii spreading.



Me reading Mail:

Hmm I like Outlook Express... clean, simple, efficient, as featured as I need. Security... well yeah... it is as good as any other client software. I do use Outlook though because it greatly simplifies contact management.

I tend to pirate Office and then I work it off later by thousands of posts about how great Microsoft is. (Actually usually my job has provided me with what I need... I just like thinking of myself as a pirate Arrr... FSM forever! That and the fact that I have Maserati upkeep to pay for... can't be affording fancy software.)

cheers,

catch

So what is your plan for education from this point forward??? Instruct your users to VPN into work and surf their email? Instruct them to purchase a router at home and VPN into that whenever they want to surf the web?

I can see you have sparked interest but what comes next what is your plan for education? Don't do it they will watch? Only surf news nonimportant sites? What about all the data on your computer that is suddenly opened up because you just connected to the public internet??

Just curious how you are going to push forward

--Spy

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I still firmly believe people should have to pass an operators exam and gain a computer licence before embarking on the adventures of touching a keyboard... Let alone wireless!

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I completely disagree, users should be provided with a safe interface not only from vendors but service providers as well. Users must be able to just use... when you attach strings your cripple the reach of the system and delay the removal of legacy systems. All of this increases costs and decreases the new products/services development resources.

cheers,

catch

It's 10:00pm and past my bedtime.... I'll address the "on-topic" issues I see tomorrow..... If that's ok with you chaps....

PS: Hi Catch... Nice to see you still around....

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I completely disagree, users should be provided with a safe interface not only from vendors but service providers as well. Users must be able to just use... when you attach strings your cripple the reach of the system and delay the removal of legacy systems. All of this increases costs and decreases the new products/services development resources.

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I guess I should have labelled that requirement as "4" - bell and whistle... Thanks Catch.

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So what is your plan for education from this point forward??? Instruct your users to VPN into work and surf their email? Instruct them to purchase a router at home and VPN into that whenever they want to surf the web?

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Tut, tut, tut Spyrus.... You were short on your lateral thinking powers yesterday huh? :) Tor and Privoxy sprang to mind immediately.... Googling "encrypted proxy software" gets me so many hits it not worth mentioning including some free stuff that doesn't even require software installation..... The issue was "What information is passed in clear that could be of harm to a user". The solution is either don't use any wireless device unless you are competent with it or provide the encryption yourself with the minimum of effort and/or cost.

Those are the two options I will be giving my users.

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users should be provided with a safe interface not only from vendors but service providers as well

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Absolutely Catch, absolutely.... Damn, how hard would it be to create an encryption key for each connection to Wireless Oakland that is based on, let's say, the date + the version of the browser + the volume serial number of the primary drive of the connecting machine. Now, before you all tell me how trivial that is to break hush up..... ;) We aren't trying to stop the u|33r 1337 here, we are trying to stop the pervert across the street from seeing when and where your 15 year old daughter is meeting her friends, we are trying to stop the gossip next door from seeing that you are having a cyber affair with a woman named hot4yourbod..... Any form of encryption, regardless of it's trivial nature will keep the vast majority of people out of others business. Hell, most people out there would give up if you just do a single character shift encryption because it will look too complicated.....

This stuff isn't rocket science.... The problem is that the politicians aren't even close to being rocket scientists... :rolleyes:

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Tor and Privoxy sprang to mind immediately

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I have been playing with these for some time now; you need patients though, as they tend to slow you down a bit. Mind you my box is not what you would call state of the art. Messenger works well with Tor and Privoxy. I have not come across a method of Torifying outlook though. I would be interested if anyone knows a way to do that.

Mind you outlook has its own ability to encrypt out going mail.

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This stuff isn't rocket science.... The problem is that the politicians aren't even close to being rocket scientists...

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The problem is that if politicans were rocket scientists we'd all be dead. :P

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Originally posted here by alleyCat

I still firmly believe people should have to pass an operators exam and gain a computer licence before embarking on the adventures of touching a keyboard... ;) Let alone wireless! [/B]

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Think about how many people pass a driving test and they can't drive at all! Just because you pass a test does not mean you are certified to do anything. I can't count how many people I see driving every day that shouldn't even HAVE a license, because they don't yield, don't signal, speed, drive too slow, etc., et al.

Licensing is NOT the way to go.

Time for us to take a little driving adventure, I say.
PM me TS.