Do tell- A hacker or a cracker

[Crimina1]

Originally posted by jared_c
Here is how I view it.

1) Cracker - Obviously someone that cracks things. Whether they are cracking a login, a serial number, encryption, or whatever.

2) Hacker - People that have a thirst for knowledge, usually involving electronic devices.

IMHO, Crackers are hackers, but they are usually using there knowledge not to benefit anyone except theirselves, even if it is hurting someone. For example, web site crackers. They crack a web site and throw up their handle so they can seem cool to their peers, meanwhile not caring that they are hurting someone's business that the person worked all their life to create. But then their are the crackers that do benefit the field. Cryptographers for example. So we can't really say that all crackers are evil, just like we can't say that hackers are all bad just because of some trouble makers.

What it comes down to is not necessarily what title you hold, it's what kind of person you are. There are good people and there are bad people. What you do with your knowledge refle

cts what kind of person you are. If you crack a site and ruin someone's business, then you my friend are an *******. In my opinion, yes you are a cracker because you cracked, and you most likely are a hacker because your thirst for knowledge eventually led you to learn how to crack. But you are an ******* as a person.
So basically IMHO, some people suck and some people don't. :-)

I agree with what you said,it's pointless to hack some website just to put up your handle and then brag about it,that makes no sense.IMHO a hacker shouldn't be bragging at all about anything he or she hacked.
Self presevation is the first law of human nature,I live by that and the only people I have to look out after and take care of are the ones that return the same.Most of these so-called "white-hats" at one time where
"black-hats"now because the FBI scared them straight they are on a mission to stop so-called bad hackers.

Why dont they just live and let live,concern yourself with your own life and stop worrying about the next man and what others are doing.If you want to help the FBI then go all the way and just join them,dont try
and stop others just because you no longer ingage in what that person still does.who made you thier overseer?.(not you personaly,in general).If someone dont want to get hacked then it's up to the admin to make sure all the correct patches are applied and all the proper permissions are given then maybe they can sleep better at night.In a perfect world that wouldn't be needed but we all know that it's not a perfect world.
All these so-called white hats are always thinking that they are so much better than anyone else,"I'm good and your not" attitude."He who is without sin,cast the first stone".The bottom line is noone has the right to call anyone bad or good unless you are 100% without sin yourself.
Live and let live and stop being so dam righteous like the sun shines out thier ass.
Let god be our judge unless you think you can do a better job at it,then again remember what happend to judas when he thought he was better than god.

Crimina1

[Vorlin]

Why dont they just live and let live,concern yourself with your own life and stop worrying about the next man and what others are doing.

I with it were that easy. You talk a lot about whitehats and how they could be interpreted and whatnot, so let me ask you a question. What about all these fscking script kiddies who do nothing more than enjoy taking someone offline, crashing something, defacing someone else's work, rooting some server in some .edu where the sysadm is overworked and underpaid, and various other things? What about them? What about them "live and let live"? Does that mean let them go on doing what they're doing, knowing damned well it's illegal, causes grief, and other bad stuff?

No, I disagree with that...I'm a white hat and I don't think I'm better than anyone. I've had to defend against people breaking into my systems, both business and private, and it pisses me off that someone "gets off" on doing that. Yes, it keeps me paid, and yes, I love my job, but no, I don't love these idiots out there who claim to be some 'l337 h@x0r' when all it really is is a dumbass mentality and the want to do harm. Fsck that noise.

[VictorKaum]

Originally posted by Vorlin

rooting some server in some .edu where the sysadm is overworked and underpaid, and various other things? What about them?

Underpaid? I was planning to get a job in an .ac domain after my exams... it seems to be a bad idea?

[jared_c]

Originally posted by Crimina1
I agree with what you said,it's pointless to hack some website just to put up your handle and then brag about it,that makes no sense.IMHO a hacker shouldn't be bragging at all about anything he or she hacked.

I think it is pointless to hack a web site period.

Most of these so-called "white-hats" at one time where "black-hats" now because the FBI scared them straight they are on a mission to stop so-called bad hackers.

I wouldn't doubt that most were black before white, however it wasn't the FBI that scared them straight. It was the natural process of growing up, and the good feeling of contributing to society rather than hurting it.

If someone dont want to get hacked then it's up to the admin to make sure all the correct patches are applied and all the proper permissions are given then maybe they can sleep better at night.

It is the admin's job to secure the server, however as the old saying goes, just because the door is unlocked you dont have the right to destroy everything in that persons house.

All these so-called white hats are always thinking that they are so much better than anyone else,"I'm good and your not" attitude." He who is without sin, cast the first stone".The bottom line is noone has the right to call anyone bad or good unless you are 100% without sin yourself.

Well the white hats dont hurt anyone, the black hats do. That's a fact, and there is nothing wrong with stating it.

I can see where you are coming from, I used to think like you. But as you get older, your views change.

[Doomscreamer]

24 years ago at the ripe age of 11 , I started working and playing on computers...for you script kiddies that was before Bill Gates' brainfart er I mean windows and also long before
Al Gore "invented" the internet . Anyway , back then most of the stuff we did wasn't against the law cuz they hadn't made any of those laws up yet. Sure, breaking into systems and checking em out wasn't maybe OK with the guy on the other end , but it also wasn't a highly publicized CNN newsbreak either....hmmm I don't think CNN was around then either, oh well.

The more people use the net, the more CNN covers the net ,the more BLAH BLAH BLAH the net the more the idiots in TV land need to have nice concise terms that they can wrap their 5th grade reading level around and feel good about. We are what we are ... actions always speak louder than words... We all at one point just loved the technology and seeing where we could go...

I'm just a lil old puter dude with a love for technocracy and thank god for capitalism!



Every time I look in the mirror, perfection is staring back at me! Flawed mirror !

[Crimina1]

Originally posted by Vorlin


I with it were that easy. You talk a lot about whitehats and how they could be interpreted and whatnot, so let me ask you a question. What about all these fscking script kiddies who do nothing more than enjoy taking someone offline, crashing something, defacing someone else's work, rooting some server in some .edu where the sysadm is overworked and underpaid, and various other things? What about them? What about them "live and let live"? Does that mean let them go on doing what they're doing, knowing damned well it's illegal, causes grief, and other bad stuff?

No, I disagree with that...I'm a white hat and I don't think I'm better than anyone. I've had to defend against people breaking into my systems, both business and private, and it pisses me off that someone "gets off" on doing that. Yes, it keeps me paid, and yes, I love my job, but no, I don't love these idiots out there who claim to be some 'l337 h@x0r' when all it really is is a dumbass mentality and the want to do harm. Fsck that noise.

Lets hope they grow out of it,you yourself said that it's pointless because they are juvies and thier's not much law wise that anyone can do to them.There are always gona be script kiddies no matter what you do,you have to just deal with it and do your own thing.As for things being "illegal" laws are arbitrary and the so-called law makers dont even follow these so-called laws they make.but thats not for this topic so lets move on.
You are 100% correct when you say that these so-called leet hax0rs break and deface websites and then brag about it,they should go straight to prison just for using thier skills for such pettyness and have the nerve to brag,but I dont work for the FBI and it's not my job to do Thier job(FBI) for them.Let them catch thier own hackers without any help from me.
And like you said "it keeps you paid" so in a warp way you owe your job because thier is some stupid script kiddie out there doing stupid **** to peoples boxes.I dont agree with doing harm to property either but I just dont agree with the metality of some people here that seem to think that all hackers/crackers deface and tear down.the really great crackers are the ones you dont hear about and aren't into such petty BS like defaceing a website or formatting someones HDD,all they want to do is make a living just like you.what right
do I have or you to call the FBI on them just because they are not part of your whitehat club ?.

Botton line is there is nothing any1 can do to stop these script kiddies and I really dont think alot of people can financially afford to really want to no matter how much trouble they cause,if not for them alot of people wouldn't have a pay check.
Script kiddies the name says it all,they are kids learning what some of us already know.I can think of a billion other things worst than that they could be doing.

Criminal

[EvIl eLf]

Cracker is somone who cracks systems
Hacker is somone who looks to experiment

Hacker /Cracker Ethos




Year 2002
Hacker and Cracker mean the same thing to the media

[Vorlin]

And like you said "it keeps you paid" so in a warp way you owe your job because thier is some stupid script kiddie out there doing stupid **** to peoples boxes.

I owe none of these people my job. My job and my progression come from me busting my ass to better myself and to learn more. There is nothing educating about someone clicking a button or compiling a pre-made .c file to exploit some random remote pc or web server or whatever. It keeps me "paid" because I constantly have to stay in the game just in the hopes that I remain one step ahead of them on the security forefront.

the really great crackers are the ones you dont hear about and aren't into such petty BS like defaceing a website or formatting someones HDD,all they want to do is make a living just like you.what right
do I have or you to call the FBI on them just because they are not part of your whitehat club ?.

Good point but you're ranting about that whitehat crap again. If I'm a 'whitehat' because I prefer to stay on this side of the law and help people out, then fine, I'm a whitehat. But I don't remember stating anywhere in this entire message board that I'm part of any club. And no, just by me being a whitehat does not put me in a 'club' with other whitehats. I prefer to select who I communicate with about security and whatnot, not everyone. I don't put myself in with them, and I haven't been "invited" to be part of any "club". If said good cracker is making a living, as in paying taxes and whatnot, on doing "cracker" type stuff, hey great. But yeah, I do have the right as a business owner to call the FBI on anyone who defaces my business site or whatnot. Regular people have no idea what to do though, and that's what this site is for. To HELP people, to EDUCATE them, and for that knowledge to be PASSED on.

Script kiddies the name says it all,they are kids learning what some of us already know.I can think of a billion other things worst than that they could be doing.

I don't ever think script kiddies know anything. Yes, I put them ALL in the same basket because I have YET to be proven wrong. Try to talk to any of them and they push themselves higher because they're '3l77t' and how you're so much shite and how your sysadm sucks because now they '0\/\/nZ j00' after defacing your web server with kiddie porn. That's not knowledge, that's a high-school mentality that they feel they have to put everyone through because "nobody understands them" or some dumb shite. Haven't we heard this before? Haven't we all gone through some level of rejection in life? Most of us grow out of it. These fsckers haven't, and won't...and if I can bury someone and make them pay for what they've done, I'll do it, because like I said before, I've had to clean up after them, I've had to defend against them, and I've had to put up with their lame crap they call 'conversation'. As for the other things they could be doing...hmmm...I can think of a BILLION (to quote you) things BETTER they could be doing, none of which involves having to break shite, put someone down, or anything else that could be defined as 'malicious'.

I'm still wondering why you're defending them so much. Perhaps it's because you were a script kiddie yourself, or have a bunch of friends who were and got busted, or something. Maybe that's why you're so against whitehats, who knows. Enlighten me because I really do wonder. And no, that's not meant as a flame either.

[Crimina1]

Vorlin,

I have to say that everything you said was 100% right on target and I cant argue with you on that.
I apologize for saying that you were in a "club" because your right ,you never said that you joined a club
so thats my bad.What I meant by saying that you owe your job to script kiddies was that as long as they keep on messing **** up at least you get paid for it.You are 100% true when you say that you are responsible for what you have learned because I feel the same exact way.I just dont like this "holier-than -thou" attitude from some of these so-called white hats.I dont deal with FBI or Cops never did never will,they are just as bad or worst than some criminals.I know criminals with better ehtics and morals than most FBI and cops have.You might not believe me but sad to say ,it's a fact.Yes I do know "crackers" that make a dam good living cracking
into computers and get paid by our government among others to crack and I one day will have the honor to join them and I will teach my son in that direction and he will teach his.What right does anyone have to come to me and say"your not a white hat ,your a cracker,your a bad person" lets go and call the FBI ?
As for a "side of the law" lol the FBI or cops dont follow that line that you dont want to cross but yet they tell us to follow it.it's a "Do as I say,Not as I do" senerio and I'm not one to follow What I dont tend to like or agree with just because some FBI or cop says it's the so-called law.I dont like people telling me what I can or cannot do which is why I dont work for anyone,I work for myself this way I dont have to put up with a boss or anyone telling me what's "The right way". You might not understand the way I am or my outlook on things and that's your right.I know you have heard "dont judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes" that's exactly how I feel.
Also you are the ONLY person since this Topic started that has been able to reply with class and not by flameing,if thats the way you are in the world with people you will live to an old ripe age.as for these other
A-Holes here,they have to learn that for every action,theres a complete and opposite one.

They expect to not be flamed when the only way they know how to speak is by flameing,go figure.
It's good to know that you didn't bye.I like to see who is easily provoked,That more than anything shows me who I'm dealing with and then I know how and what strings to pull to make them dance.Thier are alot of strings to be pulled at AO.I'm glad you'r not one(strings) of them because unlike the "others" you seem to know what you'r talking about.

Later Vorlin
Crimina1

[jethro]

Now I 'm not trying to defend anybody, I would prefer to be unbiased (because I am a programmer with an interest in network security not a (hac/crac/phrea)ker

But if it wasn't for crackers the world would be a very boring place. I love to see a crappy website that has been taken down (except if I wanted to see the actual website). If it weren't for crackers, http://www.attrition.org and all the other defacement mirror sites would be out of a job. What a terrible thing that would be.

Think of it like this: Evil makes righteousness shine.

Thanking you,
Jethro