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Thread: Revisionism

  1. #1
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    Revisionism

    I just saw that Gitta Serenys latest book has been translated to swedish and this got me thinking around the holocaust, a previous post by Jethro on another thread and revisionists in general.

    How many of you guys out there claim the holocaust to be a myth? What are your thoughts around revisionism? Am I the only one that feels sickened, hurt and so angry I could scream everytime people try to rewrite such an important part of history?

    What scares me the most is that in 40 years there will be noone alive to tell the tale. All eye witnesses will be gone and the land will lay open for anyone to rewrite the history as they see fit.

    What's your opinion?
    Mankan

    \"The purpose of abstraction is not to be vague, but to create a new semantic level in which one can be absolutely precise.\"
    - Edsger Dijkstra

  2. #2
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    For me, the question is not to tell that a-thousand-times-told history, but the fact that there are other holocausts that happened in WWII. Why media and a number of intellects talk so much about jews holocaust, when in that war died 20 million russians, 6 million polish, etc, in the most part by the hand of Waffen SS? Do anyone know (apart from some historians and maybe some witness) that the German army treatened in a worse way russians than jews? Do anyone know that only few jew-death-camps were administrated by SS, but Wehrmacht, while ALL russian-death-camps were given for the amusement of the Totenkopf of Himmler and friends?

    Maybe jews were considered a lower kind by the nazis, but people often forget that communists (or simply eastern-suspicious-people) were in even a lower place for them. I think that jew holocaust are so much remembered because they are in the victorious side. Don't forget it.

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    That is just silly. The communists were also on the winning side in case you want to check on history. East germany, cold war, die mauer, ring any bells?

    Besides, russians died because of war. In wars people get killed and it sucks. What is special with the jews is that there was a political decission to exterminate them as a group. No such decission was made with russians.

    I can understand the critisism that there has been alot of talk about the jews since communists, socialists, union workers, gay men and women, gypsies and mentally impared people also went to concentration camps.

    You say that the russians were treated worse than the jews and I'd really like to know in what way or where you have picked this info up. What do you base this on?
    Mankan

    \"The purpose of abstraction is not to be vague, but to create a new semantic level in which one can be absolutely precise.\"
    - Edsger Dijkstra

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    (I tried to answer you many times, but my system has kicked me again and again...)

    Just a brief question: Why that interest in showing us the suffering of the jews during the war, when others were suffering the same or even more? After Germans defeat in Stalingrad, russian prisoners were treated like mere beasts. Jews were still people, lower people, but people at least. Also, Germans scorched earth and people while they're running back, escaping from soviet army, lead by Stalin's mad dream of soviet Europe.

    Don't forget: History is written by the victorious.

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    Russia was victorous in World War II! Russia wrote the history together with the allied! Reality check. Please.

    You say that russian prisoners were treated like beasts but jews were still people. In what way do you think jews were treated like people? They were being held prisoners for one purpouse only - to enter the gas chamber where they got executed.

    I'm not tryig to show anyones suffering. That is not my job and I couldn't do it even if I tried because there was too much suffering.

    I'm pointing on the holocaust because it is beeing denied by the revisionists. Nobody's saying that the suffering of russians never took place. But people are actually trying to make other people belive that the political decisson to extinct all jews never existed.

    The holocaust does not lessen the suffering of all the other victims, but theis suffering isn't beeing denied.
    Mankan

    \"The purpose of abstraction is not to be vague, but to create a new semantic level in which one can be absolutely precise.\"
    - Edsger Dijkstra

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    (I tried to answer you and my system kicked me again.grrr...)


    Briefly: I don't believe you are trying to show others' suffering, please trust me!

    Other: I get angry when people applaude the works of mindsucker S. Spielberg. Why people worship such a rancorous man? In his movies, german soldiers seems Tolkien's orcs. I hate movies like "Schindler's" or "Private Ryan" because of Spielberg's distorted vision of facts, which is provoking that other people believe in it.

    Perhaps i'm not good at words...

  7. #7
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    Just a couple things:

    There seem to be two groups of revisionists: unsophisticated antisemitic propagandists, and the 'real' revisionists: those who deny the existence of a systematic, industrial plan of organized destruction which resulted in the death of about six million Jews (commonly referred to as 'THE Holocaust').

    bluepnrc, you have a point when you say that there have been other holocausts than the Jewish one. The point, however, is that most of those holocausts are NOT denied, probably because they are much better documented - and not because the victims were on the winning side (Mankan is right btw when he says you have to get your facts straight, because you seem to be confused about which WW you're talking about - The Russian Empire was defeated in WW I, but Stalins troups were victorious in WW II).

    Stalin was responsible for the death of tens of millions of people. Nobody's going to deny that fact (with the exeption of a couple die-hards). Hittler was responsible for the death of tens of millions of people. Nobody's going to deny that (with the exception of the unsophisticated antisemitc propagandists I mentioned before). That's not what this thread was originally about, though (right, Mankan?). This thread is about the systematic, industrial plan of organized destruction of the Jews during WW II, and I'd like to know your opinion on that matter...

    You're right about Shindler's List being a distorted vision of facts though...
    A suggestion: check out Nuremberg - starring Alec Baldwin. Don't eat before watching this 4-hour production, as it contains actual uncut footage of the concentration camps (picture the extermination of mad cows in England, then replace the cows with people - lots of people) - I don't understand how some people can deny the Holocaust after seeing that footage.

    Jethro: you're absolutely right about the Nuremberg trials: they were a mockery of justice. Now, let's deal with your Zyklon B-claims...

    The Nuremberg trial: Col. Amen quotes Hoess on a previous interrogation (where he indeed probably was foltered)

    The Nuremberg Trial, a transcript
    "I visited Treblinka to find out how they carried out their exterminations. The camp commandant at Treblinka told me that he had liquidated 80,000 in the course of one-half year. He was principally concerned with liquidating all the Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto. He used monoxide gas, and I did not think that his methods were very efficient. So when I set up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Cyklon B, which was a crystallized prussic acid which we dropped into the death chamber from a small opening. It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people in the death chamber, depending upon climatic conditions. We knew when the people were dead because their screaming stopped. We usually waited about one-half hour before we opened the doors and removed the bodies. After the bodies were removed our special Kommandos took off the rings and extracted the gold from the teeth of the corpses."
    This is all acknowledged by Hoess.

    One-half hour, Jethro... not ten minutes.

    It took from THREE to FIFTEEN minutes to kill the people in the death chamber... not 7-10. You may be right about Zyklon B being a SLOW acting agent, but you're writing your own version of history there... or the IHR is...

    And about Zyklon B: Zyklon B was manufactured by Degesh (American branch home-page) and Tesch/Stabenow. It indeed was manufactured originally as a pest-control agent. Zyklon B serves as a carrier for HCN (Hydrocyanic acid). Maybe you should investigate HCN instead of Zyklon B: HCN is the gas used in American gass-chambers.
    HCN is much more effective when used against warm-blooded 'animals' then it is on insects: Degesh advices to use a concentration of up to 16000 ppm with an exposure time of up to 72 hours. 300 (THREE HUNDRED, that's 50 times less) ppm is enough to kill people in 15 minutes. And about your cigarette-claim: the concentration of HCN necessary to cause death is nearly 200 times lower than that which causes explosion. Although the SS used a concentration higher than the lethal one, it was far below that causing explosion.


    That's one thing I've found typical about revisionists: they seem to be highly skilled in manipulating the FACTS (my facts come from Degesh, btw).


  8. #8
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    There seem to be two groups of revisionists: unsophisticated antisemitic propagandists, and the 'real' revisionists: those who deny the existence of a systematic, industrial plan of organized...
    For the record, I'd just like to say that I am neither antisemitic, a redneck, a skinhead, a neo-nazi...etc

  9. #9
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    I suggest you make a point of visiting the Museum of Tolerance. To say that there are exagerations is to belittle what those people went through and frankly makes me sick to my stomach.

    And let's talk about facts....how are you going to believe anyone from the Nazi party, the propaganda machine they had going had millions brainwashed. They themselves believed the lies they spread.

    This is more ridiculous than the moon landing nay sayers. I had relatives that went to concentration camps.


    P.S. Anyone who denies their suffering should meet the same fate. I realize that's cruel but that's the way I feel.
    Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even supposing knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it.
    - Samuel Johnson

  10. #10
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    Hollywood propoganda, what else can I say? Other than sometimes, emotions get the better of people and cloud the facts.
    I agree with that movie being facts-clouding. There's a 15-minute fragment of ACTUAL FOOTAGE in that movie though. Hollywood propaganda? I don't think the 'people' shooting that footage were American :/

    Half and hour is still ridiculous. It would have taken considerably longer than that.
    1. You said Hoess said that "10 minutes after the Jews were gassed (which supposedly took 7-10 minutes), the guards would come in smoking and take the bodies away".
    Hoess said One-half hour, not 10 minutes. (I'm not even debating the time it actually took, just proving that you are manipulating your quotes).

    2. Hoess didn't say ANYTHING about smoking. He mentioned the removal of gold and jewelry ("After the bodies were removed our special Kommandos took off the rings and extracted the gold from the teeth of the corpses"). The words smoke/cigarette are NOT in the transcription of Hoess' testimony.
    Again, that's a fact.

    3. Degesh advices to use a concentration of up to 16000 ppm with an exposure time of up to 72 hours. 300 (THREE HUNDRED, that's 50 times less) ppm is enough to kill people in 15 minutes.
    FIFTEEN minutes with only a 300 ppm-concentration, Jethro. 'A few minutes' according to The Merck Index.

    I like the way you used the word 'animal' in quotes as to play on human emotion. Was this your intention? I guess it doesn't matter because it probably wasn't. I wonder what it like smoking under a GAS MASK. Think about it.
    From The Merck Index and the CRC handbook of Chemistry and Physics (632, entry 4688)
    For HCN, a concentration of 300 ppm (parts per million) kills humans within a few minutes, while the minimal concentration that can result in an explosion is 56,000 ppm.
    This guide talks about 'humans'. Degesh didn't talk about humans. Degesh talked about 'warm-blooded animals'. As I was referring to the Degesh advisory, I put 'animals' between brackets, indeed referring to humans.

    What's your obsession with smoking? Like I said, Hoess didn't say ANYTHING about smoking.
    And to answer your question: I guess they were smart enough not to smoke inside 'the showers'. And to take off their masks first when outside...

    Now, where do I sign up for the IHR-slander club?

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