July 3rd, 2002, 08:37 PM
Okay, I can see how I may be contradicting myself. But, okay if we would adopt the lassie-faire policy once again, I feel as though Isreal could defend itself without our money.
Targeting is the key word here....I dont think they targeted a civilian wedding. But shyt if you KNOW they did, tell me.
Originally posted here by lord_darkside_x
and as for the talk of targetting civilians...
I just dont understand why these arabs cant move to one of their other many countrys. The Jews have no-where to go. They were almost completly wiped out. They ****ing desearve a country. But another thing I dont understand is why they can't just let it all go, and live together in peace. They put so much trust in their God, but cant trust him when he said "Vengence is mine, sayith the Lord."
It is better to be HATED for who you are, than LOVED for who you are NOT.
THC/IP Version 4.2
July 3rd, 2002, 08:46 PM
So here I was, reading through this thread, thinking, wow, glad to see that some Americans get the fact that the United States isn't the greatest place in the eyes of a lot of people. Then I stumble across the sheer arrogance of Palemoon's post (quoted below), that I just had to respond.
If the US really fought for the '[freedom of] all people', how come the US got involved in World War II only after it was attacked directly?
Originally posted here by Palemoon
Tell ya what d3, we not be bad we be a standard cause we do not fight for our freedom alone we fight for it for all people.
How come it didn't get involved in Africa, where hundreds upon thousands of people were being slaughtered in tribal warfare?
How come it didn't get involved in Tibet, where the Chinese armies were crushing and destroying a culture, driving people out of that region, and enslaving thousands?
How come it hasn't done a thing about the massive armies amassing on the borders of Pakistan and India?
I won't even touch on any recent events in Europe.
Get off your high horse. I can't believe that you would honestly sit there and say that you fight for the freedoms of all people, when you are doing nothing about the Massacring going on in Palestine and Israel. Both sides are creating victims, as Negative said. And the US is supporting one of those sides. How is that in the best interests of the freedom of all people?
I really honestly do not get people these days. A simple policy of looking at the facts is best, but I'm seeing a trend now where more and more people are grotesquely uninformed, and they seem to think that it is acceptable. I honestly don't understand how someone can think that being uninformed is a good thing.
The Nelson-Shepherd cutoff: The point at which you realise someone is an idiot while trying to help them.
\"Well as far as the spelling, I speak fluently both your native languages. Do you even can try spell mine ?\" -- Failed Insult
Is your whole family retarded, or did they just catch it from you?
July 3rd, 2002, 10:14 PM
here's my view...americans are great people...i'm married to one... but the US govt has some big big problems...and unfortunately...many people around the world equate "w", enron, monsanto, et al with everyman...that is...all of you...who are mostly decent, honest and hard working folks who actually care...
some of the things that i believe cause people to get po'd with the US...
prior to 911, the move of the bush administration was to pull back from foreign affairs..i believe even w himself admitted that he was weak on foreign policy...
bush was busily cancelling international commitments...a chemical and biological weapons agreement comes to mind...since it would have "adversely affected US corporate interests...
the US is on one hand the harshest critic of the UN...and on the other, it's largest debtor and seems to try to influence and use the UN for it's own ends...
a recent GAO report agreed, that on key security issues, such as the standoff with Iraq over U.N. weapons inspections, ..... those issues have been plagued by their own set of problems, such as recent revelations that U.S. spy agencies may have used the U.N. weapons inspectors in Iraq to collect data for themselves
as peacekeepers, the US has "had" to be more involved due to several reasons...the debt is one...
and the fact that in some cases the UN was not of the opinion that peacemaking action was appropriate (that's why they vote on things...)
Several African countries that would have been willing to send forces didn't, because they were afraid they wouldn't get paid," Connor said. "They said, 'Don't call us unless you're sending a check.' "
however, the "peacekeeping" of the UN's glory days (cypress etc), has been replaced by peacemaking, which i believe is a US govt construct...no time for negotiations...just get the job done...
but it is worthwhile to note that the US had almost no involvment in rwanda...
Contrary to later public statements, the US lobbied the UN for a total withdrawal of UN forces in Rwanda in April 1994;
Secretary of State Warren Christopher did not authorize officials to use the term “genocide” until May 21, and even then, US officials waited another three weeks before using the term in public;
Bureaucratic infighting slowed the US response to the genocide;
The US refused to “jam” extremist radio broadcasts inciting the killing because of costs and concern with international law;
US officials knew exactly who was leading the genocide, and actually spoke with those leaders to urge an end to the violence.
hmm..no oil in rwanda???...or am i being cynical
no commitment to kyoto (altho canada isn't much better here...still haven't ratified it..)...keeping oil prices artifically low...(most of the world pays between 3 and 6 bucks a gallon...
imposes a 28.8% duty on cdn lumber imports throwing 15,000 people out of work in B.C...and then announces 4.8 billion dollars in subsidies to US farmers...
then monday...the US veto of International Criminal Court in Bosnia..effectively terminating the peacekeeping mission by this friday...because
what are they afraid of...in bosnia perhaps nothing...but i think it's pretty clear that sooner or later w is going to go into iraq and finish the job sr started...and it may be damn difficult to justify based on US and international law...an exemption of this type could be seen as necessary...for if you look at the plain text of it...
US demands that all its peacekeepers and other personnel be granted immunity from prosecution by the court, which is empowered to prosecute war crimes, crimes against humanity and other major human rights violations.
leader of _____ sends troops into ______ to remove leader of _______
i know you'll say...well saddam is a nasty evil man and he should be removed...
well insert your own and then reverse them...pretty scary way to run things...
to sum up the root of why i think the US pisses some people off...unilaterilism...the US is convinced it is right and good...and really isn't interested in what anyone else has to say...and hey the US is right a lot...but not all the time...and we (the other 92% of the world) would like to be heard occasionally
ps...i won't let my wife see this topic...i spent 4 days after 911 trying to convince her that it wasn't either a direct plot by the cia with bush's full cooperation...or at least knowledge...even i couldn't believe that...she still believes it...but then again...she was a hippy when lbj and nixon were in power...but she is right on one count...blind patriotism/nationalism is far more dangerous than any other force in international affairs...
that being said...happy 4th!...to all my American friends...family...we don't all hate you...but you are a big, brash target...we all hope that you only continue to be a target of words..and nothing more...
I used to be With IT. But then they changed what IT was. Now what I'm with isn't IT, and what's IT seems scary and weird." - Abe Simpson
July 4th, 2002, 12:21 AM
Ok am thinking my browser is America friendly cause this is the third time I have tried to post this and it just keeps crashing >_<; so here goes again!!
right I think it is unfair to say
there are alot of areas where america is not #1
Europe would love to be # 1 instead of America in everything !!
some of the worlds classic writers were from the UK - Chaucer....Shakespeare
it is def not better than the likes of Brazil at Soccer as the World cup shows....
which is another point - America is the only country that can hold a championship and declare the winners the world champions without inviting any other countries to take part
Don't get me wrong I don't hate Americans - I even lived there for a while....
I just think that it isn't as great as some people make out - I could go on and on about how great my country is - and I do believe Ireland to be an amazing counrty but that is my pown personnal view - I on't expect everyone to share it.....
so all I can say to those people who think that America is #1 and every one else is wrong wise up - there is no right and wrong were that kinda thing is concerned....only personnal opinion
so please come down from your high horse and greet the rest of the world - you never know you may like it......
oh and happy 4th of July
July 4th, 2002, 12:21 AM
sending you to Norway was one of them.
some jerk said that it was "funny & you had it coming" i knocked him out and drug him out to the street and lumped him up...
our country has made mistakes
I came in to the world with nothing. I still have most of it.
July 4th, 2002, 05:06 AM
USA is only China with a better packaging. Justice belongs only to those who can afford it. It's one of the world's most freaking worst countries to live in. In New York City alone, 5 murders per day, and no news about it --- GUESS WHAT? THE GOVERNMENT HIDES THESE THINGS! If you have the urge to kill, go to New York City to kill, afterwards, just get outta town! LOL
USA tends to be the world's largest pollution provider, and since that Bush allowed coal power plants again, then obiously, USA only cares about themselves. I guess we will have to put an air shield sorta thing up and stop air and water from USA from ever getting outta it's borders. This way, I'm sure companies could then make a profit off selling oxygen tanks.
GOD WILL NEVER BLESS USA, HOWEVER, IT DOES BLESS THE CONTENENT OF AMERICA. ESPECIALLY NOT WHEN USA IS UNDER BUSH!
July 4th, 2002, 08:30 AM
Stereotypes suck but America does have the highest rate of obesity in the world so that might explain the "fat-ass" part. I haven't met that many Americans but I've known some. One of my best friends in high school was a guy from Colorado and arrogant he was not.
I have noticed from websites, and international opinion that Americans and America itself is looked at like were all fat-ass arrogant little *****s.
Having said this most of the Americans that I've met have come across as arrogant at first and we all know first impressions last. Maybe this is because of the difference between the Australian and American cultures. In Australia, it is really frowned upon if you act like you think you're superior to average person in any way. For more information, do some reading on the Tall Poppy Syndrome (no I'm not making this up). It doesn't matter if you're better than someone at something, you're not allowed to admit that you think this or people will think that you've "got tickets on yourself". From what I've seen Americans are more cocky and are encouraged by American society to be more confident. This often gives other people the wrong message.
Sorry no. There has not been a single time when I can remember wanting to live in America rather than Brisbane, Australia. I simply don't feel that America is any "greater" than Australia. But my criteria for deciding this might be different to yours. By the same token, I don't see Australia as any "greater" than America. But why should I envy America?
The rest of the world envys America for it's greatness, I am assuming.
America is not looked down upon because of its support for independence and freedom.
Why is it that a country that supports independence and freedom on such a level, looked down upon?
It's not America's official foreign policy that upsets people. It's all the unofficial stuff, the back room politics, that enrages a lot of nations.
Is it our foreign policy?
Are we not giving enough money and rations to the starving nations?
That's debatable but it's also arguable that America is indirectly responsible for the situation in Afghanistan anyway.
Did we not create somewhat of a "freedom" in Afghanistan, by destroying the Taliban? Did we not send in the troops to Somalia, when the people were being starved?
Because no one wants a war. Has the so called "War Against Terrorism" yeilded any tangible benefits for the American public? Well I suppose Bush had to look like he was doing something.
Why is it that when 9-11 first when down, all these European nations claimed they had our backs...Germany gifted our government with a few tanks painted red, insinuating their Support in a military action. But as soon as Bush went over there to call to arms, Germans didnt want anything to do with it.
Yep, pretty much.
Is this the type of behavior that has lead America to its reputation?
I don't envy America. But some people do because of the way that Americans act or are perceived to act. Nobody likes being told they're second class. Stereotypes are bullshit. I've learned to judge people for who they are (at least I try to). And I couldn't give a rats ass what anyone thinks about my country, especially some 15 year old who thinks using DreamWeaver is elite. No country is perfect. But it's my country and that's good enough for me. I bet most of you people from the US feel the same about your country.
Or is it that America is simply the most powerfull country in the world and the world has become envious of her power?
OpenBSD - The proactively secure operating system.
July 4th, 2002, 08:42 AM
my 2 cents
America is in the limelight + People like to bitch and complain = worthless mudslinging
simple little equation. But there is no country that's perfect not even near perfect. There is no promiss land. There is no country without rednecks (of some sort). People like to generalize and steriotype and since the US is always in the news for something people bitch about it, and that's the way it will probly always be.
Alternate realities celebrate reality. If you cant handle the reality your in, then you wont be able to handle the one your attempting to escape to.
July 4th, 2002, 01:39 PM
a few notes of perspective please.
1. First troops in Afghanistan after terrorist attack on US. Mountain Warfare troop, 22nd regiment of hooligans from hereford who were in the area at the time.
2. The reluctance of some armed forces to 'work' with US armed forces may be something to do with the extremely high Blue on Blue engagements that occur when US forces are involved, hmmm 60%+ of british dead in Gulf were killed by americans, 1 complete afghan wedding reception, 4 canadian peacekeepers in a training area etc etc.
3. Doing and giving more. as stated before...the people of El salvador, Nicuaragua etc are extremely grateful of your gifts. The Kurdish people in iraq were probably grateful NO-ONE in the international community did anything to stop them from being gassed and murdered UNTIL oil production was threatened after Kuwait was invaded.
as for films portraying the US as the saviour of mankind, it tends to be a little subjective. personally the rallly round what the presidents organising from Independance day was annoying. its probably more of a by-product of most films being set in america. (and yes...the good old british agent 007 always saves the day ....lol)
Terrorism is not about attacking civilians extract from an american dictionary:
"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."
The IRA are a terrorist organisation and they were happy to target civilian or military targets.
most people, probably, do not hate america or americans.
Personally i have no problem with anyone, unless they are Pretentious, Zealous, Bigoted, Autocratic, Theocratic or Dictatorial.
To misquote several phrases......
"People who set them selves on pedestals of virtue and surround themselves with a glass house should expect the slings and arrows of outrageous mud slinging"
enjoy your holiday.
July 4th, 2002, 02:26 PM
toker> the wedding party was originally thought not to have been "tragetted"... they thought that the group was firing pistols that the airplane pilots thought was anti-aircraft fire... this is obviously a load of bull because anti-aircraft fire and pistols aren't even closse to similar... but now the story has changed and officials are unsure why the party was attacked.
the us also blew up an elimentary school in iraq during the gulf war. the claim was that they got it confused with a weapons factory... now doesn't that seem a little strange...
Learn like you are going to live forever, live like you are going to die tomorrow.