July 27th, 2002, 06:37 PM
The Future of hacking
This is a thread I initiated on another board. Thought I'd throw it out to the wolves for dismantling, dismembering and cogitation. It's a commentary on a conference I attended earlier this year and how it relates to hackers.
Hacking, in one form or another, has been the driving factor in the country's
Since the days of the Pharaohs (sp?) man has been in the constant mode of
beating the existing system and then creating a new system that overcomes
I always considered hacking to be a combination art-form and science.
If it weren't for hacking, we would have never cracked the Japanese code in WWII,
or the German's.
In Part - it's hacking that made America great.
The battle between the malicious hackers and the government must continue
to enable our systems to evolve.
The Government needs hackers now more than ever.
Hackers are pivotal to help create a secure, off-the-shelf system that
Joe Average would feel comfortable transacting all his/her financial
I totally agree with what you say, linked to this is what differentiates
humans from primates or any other creature.
We are never happy with anything, we always want to make it do more, make
it better/stronger/faster/(more efficient/smaller Japs ;p).
This is linked to hacking and is part of our desire to see how good things
are, how we can get past them and during this process usually improve them
or invent something else that resolves the problem.
Hacking is part art, part science and part pure hard work.
I would argue that America is great at all...but that's a complete different
discussion ;p (joke)
Hacking made technology in some parts what it is today.
Actually what makes technology move so fast is Pornography, if it wasn't
for Porn we wouldn't be online now Pr0n is the only thing on the Internet
that has every successfully and consistently made money.
This is what pushes technology forwards and has made the Internet what it
Let's all say a prayer to PORN!
Anyway some may say that we wouldn't need AV products, Firewalls, IDS if
there weren't hackers at all.
We could have used the R+D and money for better things, which in itself is
true, but human nature dictates that we aren't all good, and the majority
that are good aren't good ALL the time.
This means hackers have always been and will always be.
Hackers push the boundaries of security and the majority of highly skilled
work for the good of the system in some way or another.
H4x0rs 0wnz j00 4ll.
Hack the Planet.
Your faithful 'Greyhat'
... to help create a secure, off-the-shelf system that Joe Average
would feel comfortable transacting all his/her financial transactions.
This, by the way, is from the mouths of government and industry itself.
I had the priviledge to attend a workshop/press conference headed up by
the Federal Trade Commission this spring.
See http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/workshops/security/agenda.htm for details on
the workshop. You may not know the names, but the companies/agencies
will be very well known to most of us here.
I archived the contents in case the FTC removes the link after six months
For Transcripts see
For the Agenda see
http://haknwak.shacknet.nu:911/Cyber...genda-Consumer Information Security Workshop.htm
For Biographies of all speakers see
For brief description and purpose of workshop see
The keynote speaker was Richard Clarke - He's the 'Tom Ridge' of Cyber
Security. The Special Adviser for Cyberspace Security within the National
For article on his appointment see
The guy is at a peer level with Ridge, has the same reporting (or lack of
reporting) requirements as Ridge and gets his money directly from the
Prez. Pretty much a blank check and unbridled authority to make policy.
Anyway, the underlying agenda was -
How are we (the government, financial, legal, computer, data security
going to help (force)
"Joe Average" from "Middle of the Road, USA" gain confidence in
The idea (plan) is only a single phase of the overall plan to
eliminate currency as we know it.
The concept was mentioned multiple times from multiple sources that
there will be an off-the-shelf device (Probably available at Radio Schlock
etc) through which all financial transactions occurred.
This does not include Point Of Sale purchases, but all banking, credit, bill
paying and the greater majority of mid-size to large purchases are made.
Purchases like refrigerators, stoves, cars, will be done almost exclusively
They are talking a time-frame of between four and 10 years.
aside: Just think about how many jobs will be lost when retailers cut
back their floor sales staff and showroom stores
Anyway, it was a think tank of all these top-level people talking about
security and, consumer confidence, and the latest techonlogy on 'beating
'Beating the hacker' translates directly to my contention that Industry and
Governemnt needs knowledge gained from the constant attempts made
by hackers to find vulnerabilites. It is from this activity that they will
develop that magic 'secure device'.
The downside is that illegal hacking will be agressively hunted down like
rats and that much stricter laws will be put in place, both stateside and
internationally, in the powers granted to 'official agencies' to hunt us down
and prosecute activity that was not previously illegal..
If you read around the news you'll see a real loose pocketbook by all
governments in this arena. Tools, previously illegal, are and will be put in
place which make our Internet and our currently, legally private, data an
open window to them.
Where I'm leading with all this rambling, is that it's great to be out there
in the 'army' hacking, but to be effective we need to be active in some
way, in watching the 'good guys' so that we are not infringed upon.
They try and equate us to terrorists which triggers the uncontrollable
response to go get the bad guys and labels us all as such.
At least we need to be well versed on their activities and involved in some
organization which is protecting privacy and/or anonymity.
The whole privacy vs. anonymity issue will be a future installment.
[ July 27, 2002, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: haknwak ]
If you lived here you\'d be home by now.
July 27th, 2002, 08:17 PM
I totally agree about how hacking (in some form) has been around since the dawn of time. You are a grey hat? Can you tell me how you started hacking and how I can become a grey hat like you. I don't want to be malicious. I don't want to exploit . Don't take me for a worthless lamer. I really do want to learn.
If you disagree just tell. There is no need to flame. Does anyone flame JP? He is a hacker too (white hat, of course). We all started out as newbies
July 27th, 2002, 09:44 PM
You mentioned this up there, but I just wanted to add about how we would be the most insecure country in the world if we didn't have hackers. If there wasn't any hackers in America/anyone hacking america, we wouldn't have many firewalls(or any other type of software) and we would give people less jobs. For example there would be less people going out for sysadmin., less security programmers, less internet investigators, that look for hackers, and this very site wouldn't be here if it wasn't for hackers.
\"keep your friends close, your enemys closer, and your administrator closest.\"
July 27th, 2002, 11:12 PM
That is so true we need hackers today. People think that they are so bad but if they would come and acutally know the culture they would know who are the good guys and who are the bad. I mean system administrators and so need to be a hacker to stop one. Correct?
July 28th, 2002, 03:42 AM
this anti terrorism law, is now being exended to computer crime, it will go even further underground
July 28th, 2002, 04:03 AM
Do not care why you got a neg your post is both factual in history and in how such things were used. What however is lost now days the purpose of the hack, so many say to gain knowledge. Yet a private or for that matter corp web site is not at war with anyone they bring their self, product, or service to the world. Hacking has never been about waging a war upon any one people, country or site just cause you got some script from some web site. Was not intended to steal personal information on any people, nor a credit card number. Then to sell or give away that information. Write a virus or a worm you give raw data for someone else to make lots of money from because off of these efforts of people proving a point do it cause they can and well make Zero for their efforts and Corps reap your rewards.
Hacking is hard now firewalls, intrusion software/hardware all made possible by people doing stuff just to make a name but let others profit from the effort. Hack the wrong way your a slave to a Corp that makes products to sell to someone just doing business or maybe just are on-line to tlk to family. Me lots of flaws in everything in life my car, my food, my electricity bill, my internet bill. I choose not to give raw materials to the corp mass for free. Imagine say Anti-viri people having to pay you not to release anything and then say you are a black mailer, M$ tell them of a flaw and they ignore you ask a consultant fee instead not before you break anything but going as a vendor and ask them to sign your non disclousure agreement. Hackers are being taken to the bank to the tune of billions cause hackers don't understand the business world. Submit a fault or bug ask the company to sign your EULA, and NON-Disclouser agreement. In short find fault in their products but don't provide an answer unless it is on your terms and it costs them money, after all one has to eat and have a place to live.
Furture of Hacking is NOT to give away what you know for free to any Corp but start one and have legal people make the Corps that want to know what you do pay for the "SERVICE" a Version of DOT. NET subscribe to this for them thing.
I believe that one of the characteristics of the human race - possibly the one that is primarily responsible for its course of evolution - is that it has grown by creatively responding to failure.- Glen Seaborg
July 28th, 2002, 04:22 PM
The whole ``hat`` thing is mostly just about a person's set of ethics. White hats are supposedly the ``good guys`` who go around fixing and making and building things.
Can you tell me how you started hacking and how I can become a grey hat like you
Black hats are meant to be the ``bad guys``, breaking into websites, taking down servers...etc.
I think it's stupid to try and fit anybody into such deadset categories, as black and white. I always thought that ``grey hats`` were kind of a paradox. If you're not a white hat, then you're black.
Just my 2p.
July 28th, 2002, 07:25 PM
Hacking is the ultimate grey area.
July 28th, 2002, 08:37 PM
In my opinion, hackers make and break the great independent US of A.
They allow the development of new and better software where as they also make it difficult for the everyday internet user who is just on to chat and send e-mail.
- The mind is too beautiful to waste...
July 28th, 2002, 11:50 PM
america i's the greatest in hacking ? b**l s**t. you know Indonesia is the civillization of hackers. don't you know that there's no program can't be hacked here ?