This really annoys me!!! Total control...
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Thread: This really annoys me!!! Total control...

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2002

    This really annoys me!!! Total control...

    Hi there.

    Okay, first of all you've gotta know I'm from german. Germany - the home of burreaucracy and formality.
    I just read a few lines in a magazine and as shocked immediately:

    The government just accepted a new law that describes a few rights for our so-called "security organisations". As written down in the "Tomorrow", the new law says that all the communications and all the internet-traffic shall be logged and not be deleted for 6 month. That means that every telephony-company has to record all incoming and outgoing calls including

    User-from -> User-to
    Length of call
    Time when called

    Then the mobilephone-companies will have to record all SMS in whole - that means they have to save

    User-from -> User-to
    complete text of SMS
    Time when sent
    Position of sender/receiver when sent

    For this not to be enough, there is even more:

    All internet-providers have to save your eMails when coming in or going out of your mailbox.
    That means when you're registered and "Deutsche Telekom" then the Telekom saves all the text you send or receive in eMails. Nice, huh?

    They say it's necessary for "extended fight against crime" especially crime against children and sexual abuse of children.

    And now the best of all:
    All of these "security organisations" such as our "secret service" (dunno what they call it right now...) or just the police have full access to all of this data. They just have to call the company where the data they want is saved, say "Hello, here is Mr. X from security organisation Sec007. We are interested in the last 1200 phone calls and 500 eMails that were received or sent by Mr. Suspicious. Please send them there and there. Yes. Goodbye.".

    IMHO this is a direct attack on the consumer's privacy.

    I would like to know what you think about it.

    (Did I mention this IMS-Catcher-Device they use to precisely locate mobile-phones? Whenever you log on to a mobile-network with your mobile, they can track you down to the meter. Just in case someone is fleeing and he's using a mobile )

    This post has been [shadow]sledged[/shadow]

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    IMHO, governments seem to be placing policies and laws that make their country have less and less freedoms. While saying that it's "all for our own protection". This seems to be another example of that..
    \"One wonders what would happen in a society in which there were no rules to break. Doubtless everyone would quickly die of boredom.\" -Susan Hawatch

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    that is just oppression , I dnt really understand that at dare there be a law that allows another human-being to read my personal emails, hear what i have to say on the phone, etc. I am sure there are some people who say " well they are government agents" but i guess i just have to ask you this " does that make them anyless human" and isnt it "innocent until proevn guilty" ? I completely disagree with the german government but i have a question ... is this going on EVERYWHERE? ( in germany that is)

  4. #4
    Gray Haired Old Fart aeallison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Buffalo, Missouri USA
    This is going on anywhere they think they can get away with it...IMHO
    I have a question; are you the bug, or the windshield?

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Heh, and you/we/they say the US government is being too "big brother" with things such as "carnivore" (which has been renamed I believe...). Quite frankly I must admin I find these mesures abusive... At least requiring court orders and good motives put some restreints, but just "on demande"...

    Anyways, you guys better start using PGP/GPG heh...

    Credit travels up, blame travels down -- The Boss

  6. #6
    Senior Member Info_Au's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    George Orwell's "1984"
    Imagine if he started with living in today's standards???

  7. #7

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    If anyone here wouldn't mind, and has the time to read this. id like to project a possible outcome and illistrate how far all this all could go, if left unchecked.
    Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”

  9. #9
    -> While your situation in Germany is frightening in that it is openly published, showing a government abandoning even the pretense of privacy, you should know that it is certainly not an isolated plan. The entire system itself is surveilled by the member nations of UKUSA Agreement. Germany is a "third party member" of the UKUSA SIGINT operation. From a site regarding UKUSA SIGINT operations as they apply to Canada, we find the following (followed by the hyperlink itself):

    "The member agencies of the UKUSA community include the Communications Security Establishment, the United States' National Security Agency (NSA), the United Kingdom's Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ), Australia's Defence Signals Directorate (DSD), and New Zealand's Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB). A number of other countries' SIGINT agencies also participate in the UKUSA community, including those of Germany, Japan, Norway, South Korea, and Turkey. These countries are sometimes described as "Third Party" members of the agreement. In addition, some countries, such as China, host UKUSA SIGINT stations or share SIGINT on a more limited basis."

    ( from )

    -> While Germany may be taking somewhat of a lead in implementing such policies openly, there is every reason to think that all such telephony/internet data transfer may already be recorded, covertly. The very existence of the DICTIONARY obviates such recording. It was a few years ago when No Such Agency bragged to visitors that every bit that flows in the internet is recorded in the acres of computers operated by No Such Agency. Whether or not this was completely true is open to debate.

    -> Last September's unprecedented terrorism in New York and near the District of Columbia have been used here in the USA to pass all sorts of nasty legislation. For instance, the FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court) has had its scope amended to be able to conduct black-bag searches on US citizens for OTHER THAN FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE/SECURITY reasons. Its power was greatly expanded already when President Clinton signed Executive Order 12949, to authorize Department of Justice (DoJ) requests to conduct physical as well as electronic searches, without obtaining a warrant in open court.

    -> So you see, the power is expanding incrementally, and has been for years, here in the USA and obviously there, in Germany. A quick perusal of Australian, Canadian, and even NZ news shows that such measures are proceeding roughly in time with each other. There is no reason to assume the rest of the world won't follow. Hell, half the planet is yet to be wired, and when it is the eyes and ears will surely be in place. Using legitimate concerns like child pornography, identity/online fund theft, 911-style terrorism, and even the endless stream of malware that issues forth, the authorities have little real opposition anymore. Dissent is portrayed as protection of criminality.

    -> As with any and all of this crap, your job it to educate as many as you can. Don't be wild or alarmist (you don't seem so) or else others can label you any way they wish. Demonstrate the facts. Some will listen to you. Many won't. A vast sea of humanity is so hopelessly dependent on the system (or so they have been taught to believe), that many will rather call you a crank/wacko rather than deal with hard truths.

    -> Don't make the mistake in thinking this country or that country is any better or worse. There is only a gradient on which you can plot the varying stages of STATIST IMPLEMENTATION. In the new interconnected world, nation-states and their policies are becoming less of distinct entities and more like different flavors of a public relations machine for the same trans-national superstate. Look not to the national governments. Read the works and plans of the Tri-Lateralists, and you will see that there is no "conspiracy" to run the world, for a conspiracy is something hidden, while the plans of the Tri-Lateralists and their CFR-parent organs are openly printed and published, albeit in smaller circles. For example: the entire US/UK energy geo-strategic energy gambit in the Caspian basin, implemented through ENRON and UnoCal to replace Persian Gulf oil sources with Russian reserves, has brought us the very pipeline through Pakistan/Afghanistan, and its resulting terrorist bombing of NY and DC, that was predicted in the book "THE GRAND CHESSBOARD", written by Zbigniew Brzezinski, former National Security Advisor and current Tri-Lateral Commission member. (In fact, he's Trustee and a founder of the Trilateral Commission). He obviously knows what he's talking about. The point is, these folks plan alot farther out than your average family who works for paychecks. Government are but an apparatus for implementing such policies and goals. In this light, surveilling your email and phone calls seems an obvious step for such a global architecture to take as it consolidates its authority.

    -> FISA court article:

    -> an interesting link from a German/European perspective on "The Grand Chessboard" by Brzezinski:

    -> a counterSpin review of Brzezinski's book:

    -> more:

    -> FAS Echelon/UKUSA book excerpt showing interlocking SIGINT directorates and abilities of the system:

    -> an of course, a million more sources, waiting for you to do the data, read, read, fellow users, for we may find ourselves someday holding keys to the kingdom whether we like it or not... (didn't i read something about life sentences for hacking?)

    Obey All Orders Without Question...The comfort you\'ve demanded is now mandatory. --Jello Biafra

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Helsinki, Finland
    People who make these laws clearly don't know anything about computers. The amount of data to be stored is HUGE and it's quite a job to search the data from tapes or what ever media they use to store them.

    Does the law mention how long must the data be saved? I assume at least a year.

    If I were you I'd start using PGP or some similar thing and just for the fun of it sent every day a 10 MB email to myself or some fake addresses.
    Q: Why do computer scientists confuse Christmas and Halloween?
    A: Because Oct 31 = Dec 25

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