Stem Cell Research

[carbonlifeform]

RE: Sodamoca

Allright, I'm ignoring the god debate. I understand that this is a topic
that requires more close contact with the debaters to be useful to
anyone.

One rationalization for being against animal testing is that it's used for
testing things such as toxicity of a chemical. You put some gas in the
air for rabbits and rats to breathe and see how much of that gas do you
need there to kill 50% of the test animals. Ofcourse, all are killed after
each test, because they are no longer useable as test subjects. Then
again, you'll note that different animals respond to different chemicals
in a different way. Some bugs die of a pesticide whereas others wont
and this goes for bigger things as well. This is why I'm against animal
testing, but back to our topic:

Stem cell research can give us(=humanity) something more applicaple
and useful that will help make lives of disabled or injured humans worth
living. And I think there's already quite alot of human life around here
mostly destroying the planet either by spending in luxuries or doing
desperate things in poverty such as cutting off the last of 'em trees in
a rain forest to keep warm at night. I think we should focus on those
that are already here and make sure that those that come after us can
have a life worth living.

It is also interesting that many religious people consider the life POTEN-
TIAL to be more important than ACTUAL life.

Quality, not quantity and some of us(humans) may survive this millenium.

[silentstalker]

GGhornet, you are very right. But I think the ones that negged me are missing the point of what I believe in.

I don't think stem cell research is wrong, like I said. I would even donate some money, and probably will in the future, to helping it grow and aiding scientists in the research. But, if you kill an embryo for the cause of it is where the morals come in. Is it right? Now, if an embryo dies, like happened in my family (sadly), then you can research its stem cells. There's no problem for me in that aspect, just the murder of them for it.


Silentstalker
Silentstalker@hackers.com

[x acidreign x]

As for you, mr. x acidreign x , the proud athiest, who the hell do you think put you here? The lady next door?

my mommy put me here... how about you? this was all explained in the childrens' book "where babies come from" you should read it, its quite informative...

I am sorry that you have had a hard life. But would you really want a world where God takes away our freedom and makes us into robots who can only do what they are programmed to do?

thats just it, i don't want a god at all... and your comment illustrates the reason why... My beliefs have nothing to do with my crummy past, I just used it as an example. The reason I am an athiest is because of the deplorable behavior i observe in those who are not. And as far as people only doing what they are programmed to do, its funny you mention that, because Ive been to church, i was raised southern baptist, and after having done a little unrelated research on hypnotism in the 7th grade, i went back to more accurately guage the similarities... the results shocked even me...

now back to the debate at hand...

A "God centered" approach to moral decision making will not allow me to say, "Whatever science wants to do is ok, as long as it has some benefits." Just because something is legal, does not mean it is moral.

and just becuase YOU say something is immoral doesn't make it so.

Read the first few chapters of the Bible sometime. It tells the story.

as far as what God says. The bible is not the word of God... the bible is the word of the last person to translate the bible. How many times HAS it been translated anyway? and who wrote it? Imagine a magician went back in time 2002 years and rode in on a donkey through the east gates of the city just as it was predicted the messiah would. then he put on his act... what do you think these primitive people would say? do you even think they would question his power? a few gimmicks, some quick hands and a couple of dancing assistants and hed be running the place in a few days. do you really think that jesus was a fair-haired white boy? He was born in nazareth to a mother of arab-jewish blood... he probably looked more like the black dude from miami vice, depending on who his father was (I mean lets face it, ask a gynecologist how many pregnant "virgins" he gets every day, the level of denial in young girls as to the definition of sex is STAGGERING, almost Clinton-ish) how many white boys were in nazareth in 0 B.C. ???

until about 6 months of pregnancy, a fetus is incapable of surviving even with modern medical treatment.. when should people be used for research? when no matter how much medical treatment they receive, they would eminently die, thats when... embryos used in stem cell research are well within these parameters.

Lets say that you are an embryo. Would you like your life to be taken away for the sake of someone else's?

I honestly wouldn't care... know why? because I CAN'T. children are incapable of basic problem solving skills untill they are about 5 months old... incapable of empathy until the age of about 2. and dont develop higher reasoning until well after age 5... as far as conciousness? who is to say what that is? what people generally percieve as conciousness is literally no more than the ability to store and access memories... but by that definition, my computer is more concious than i was till i was about 2... an embryo that is less than a few weeks into a cycle is far from the ability to know or care what happens to them. and as for their "soul" why would they mind going strait to heaven without the necessary long, hard life? sounds like a pretty suite deal to me.

well, I think I've made my point. I've enjoyed this debate, religiously motivated debates are rather fun for me, I'm not sure why... Thanks all.

[carbonlifeform]

Very good, x acidreign x. Too bad I can't give you any APs.

[rcgreen]

children are incapable of basic problem solving skills untill they are about 5 months old... incapable of empathy until the age of about 2. and dont develop higher reasoning until well after age 5... as far as conciousness? who is to say what that is?

Are you suggesting that, because of this, their legal right to life should
not be established until then?

[x acidreign x]

did you read what i wrote? because i said the exact opposite.

until about 6 months of pregnancy, a fetus is incapable of surviving even with modern medical treatment.. when should people be used for research? when no matter how much medical treatment they receive, they would eminently die, thats when... embryos used in stem cell research are well within these parameters.

[rcgreen]

did you read what i wrote? because i said the exact opposite

Sorry, but it didn't seem that clear, and in fact, people are all over the map
as to where they would put the legal cut-off point, when the "fetus" becomes
a "baby", and in fact, I have heard that some people actually advocate
some time after birth.

By historical tradition, birth is the legal beginning of life, and this was true
even before the universal acceptance of abortion. That is, even when it was
illegal, I don't think it was classified as murder.

As for the use of very young embryos for research, I still think it is a classic
case of vampirism, prolonging the lives of old people by giving them the
life essence of the embryos. Only time will tell if it paves the way (as I believe)
for more frightening methods of using and exploiting some human beings
for the benifit of other (priveliged) human beings.

One can only hope that the legal and ethical barrier of birth
will remain, and that already born people will never lose the legal
right to life, even if they are retarded, handicapped, and considered a
"burden on society".

Regardless of what your "religious" outlook may be, it is in your self interest
to live in a society with a high legal threshold against classifying some of us
as a resource to be mined for others' use.

[gamemaster6502]

Ok, I am somewhat of a pro-lifer; but, in the case of stem cell research, I find it more applicable to use the stem cells to save lives. Why wait for major organs such as hearts, livers, lungs and so on when you can clone them? Currently, when a person has a transplant, they have to take anti-rejection medications; yet, if we pursue stem cell research someday we'll be able to save millions of lives. So if we have to kill little timmy the embryo to save others- so be it.

[SodaMoca5]

I don't mean to come across harsh Gamemaster6502 so if I do please forgive me but you are confusing two big issues together. Stem cell research and cloning are not the same issue. Cloning is being used to create more stem cells but stem cell research is not really being used to enhance cloning. If my reading on the subject is correct (and if it isn't I am sure someone here will correct me) stem cells are pre-defined cells. They have not chosen what type of cell they are going to become. The research is that they can be directed, within a host environment, to become the types of cells we want them to become.

Therefore in a paralyzed person they can be introduced into the damaged area and replace lost or damaged nerves thereby restoring full, or better, function. With Alzheimers and many other special cell dependent diseases they could be used to trigger the recreation of the deficient cells, neural endings, pathways etc. Currently their most encouraging research is with nerves since normal nerves do not regenerate or, in some conditions, regenerate very slowly.

There is the future hope that they will be able to repair other types of organs including damage caused by heart attacks, liver damage, lung damage, etc. without requiring transplants at all. Whether any of it will happen or come about is still uncertain, however, it is the best current hope medical science has especially in the treatment of nerve related disorders.

Cloning only enters the debate as a process for making more stem cells. The organ cloning issue is another one and deserves a thread all its own (but don't expect me to start it ).