Vietnam

[SarinMage]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/805226.asp

to me this looks all to similer to vietnam.

anyone else agree?

War Pigs/Luke's Wall (7:55)

Gen'rals gathered in their masses,
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction,
Sorcerer of death's construction
In the fields the bodies burning,
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind,
Poisoning their brainwashed minds
Oh Lord Yeah!

Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave thier role to the poor, yeah

Time will tell on their power minds,
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess,
Wait 'till their judgement day comes, yeah

Now in darkness world stops turning,
Ashes where the bodies burning
No more War Pigs have the power,
And as God has struck the hour
Day of judgement, God is calling
On their knees the war pigs crawling,
Begging mercies for their sins
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings
Oh Lord Yeah!
---------------------------------------------
The world today has such a wicked face
Fighting going on between the human race
People go to work just to earn their bread
While people just across the sea are countin' the dead

A politician's job they say is very high
For he has to choose who's got to go and die
They can put a man on the moon quite easy
While people here on earth are dying of (old/all) diseases

A woman goes to work every day after day
She just goes to work just to earn her pay
Child's (sitting/city) cry "my life is harder" *1
He doesn't even know who is his father

*1 Child sitting by a body life is harder

[Phat_Penguin]

funny you should mention this, stumbled across this article the other night ... I believe it was written back in April 2002

http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/m...rticle&sid=171

Not that I agree with the entire content of the article, but it does give food for thought.

[gghornet]

First I'd like to say that being a 20 year old male with a little college education,and registered for the draft,that at any time I would be proud to take up arms for my country,but because I got a moral waver for a bench warrent I didn't know I had for a subpeona mailed to an address I hadn't lived at for over 6 months,and failed to report it to my recruiter I can't join the armed forces unless I am drafted.I don't see this as being anything like Vietnam.
1.It will be fought in a desert,a totaly different form of warfare than jungle.
2.Our technology is much better than vietnam,and a lot more people support the possibility of this war than was the case with Vietnam.
3.There is more support for the US government as a whole within the country than before and during the Vietnam war.
4.The US government knows that we have a huge military force and knows that the best way to fight this war is to use it.Unlike Vietnam where from the start there was an insufficiant amout of troops and firepower for the job until they were running on almost purly drafted soldiers,a good portion of which didn't want to be there in the first place,and definately didn't want to be there after being under fire for the first time.
5.We have planes,lots of planes,that are able to take out a huge portion of the enemies rescources and troops before we even have to hit the ground.
6.In desert warfare it is much easier to utilize the armored units,not to mention Iraq's old rusted Russian tanks can't even put a dent in the Abrams when thay can hit it,because the Abrams can fire while on the move.Their tanks can't.
7.Our troops are willing to fight.Their troops aren't.(What's left of the ones from desert storm know how outmatched they are first hand,and the rest are being led by them.)
8.Intelligence has maps of every inch of Iraq by now I'm sure,half the time our troops didn't have the slightest idea where they were in Vietnam.
The US military has every concievable advantage over Iraq and then some.Last time they went in,there were very few casualties on the US side,and most of those were traffic accidents and friendly fire.

[SarinMage]

our troops are willing to fight.......

then why send out our FUTURE.

sure...force them to join, force them to conform, put them threw the machine, and watch them turn out jsut like the rest of the ignorent people in this world.

polititions gather together, make these bullshit wars, and then use us a panns in their game. do any of the people in this country have any idea whats going on behind our gov'ts walls. no. do we have any say in what wars we should fight. no o we have any say in anything that has anythign to do with pour military ways. NO

hmm why should we fight for something we know NOTHING about. that we had NO PART in. make the polititions fight if anything. i diddent want a war.

why do we want a fight. My point to al lthis is, ok,were going to war, fine accepted. but my ideas, and the ideas of others like me will help future generations AVOID these conflicts. were still living in our fathers mistakes. we still are cleaning up after them. But at the same time we are making the same mistakes. war has prooved nothing xcept that the human race is ignorent, adn will never proove otherwise. all i hope is that generations will hear what i have to say and avoid the nonsense that is war.

1. the war is being held in a desert.

ok, firsdt thing. im not talking about the area it was in, i said nothing about military tactics. im talking politics here, not military tactics

2. oh wow we can blow things up. its still blowing things up and killing people.

3. thats subject to personal opinion.

4. numbers numbers numbers. all they talk about are numbers.

5. more technology again... its the "IVE GOT BIGGER BALLS THEN YOURS" syndrome

6. again, im not talking about the military tactics. they werent talking about that in vietnam either. we diddent belong in the war. we dont belong in this one.

7. TROOPS ARE WILLING TO FIGHT again,"ive got bigger balls then yours, AND i got a big ass boner"

8. IM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE TACTICS THE MILITARY USE.


pay a bit more attention to what im saying. im talking about the politics BEHIND the military

[Chuck56]

I think the solution is, and not in every case, that if politicians are so anxious for war, let's gather the leaders of both governments involved on an island and let them fight it out. Bet we wouldn't have many wars in the future.

If we're attacked, then send the troops. In the case of 9/11, I think we were attacked. On the other hand, although I'm convinced Saddam and some of the others in the Mid-East are involved, I haven't seen anything defiinite yet to convince me we should go after him. What's going on, as far as I can see, is a continuation of the Gulf War. We should have finished it then.

[Phat_Penguin]

Well said Sarin - [nice passage from Black Sabbath by the way ]

I was going to chip in earlier - there is no confusion on my part.

Regardless of which side of the arguement is right or wrong, one has to remember that the "invading" force has a home to return to - family and friends waiting, a way of life to return to - the people living in the "occupied" country are fighting for their existence - which turns them into formidible foe who will use whatever means to just survive, they have no place to return to, no place to run.

In Vietnam, the US had superior fire-power compared to the opposing forces. In Cambodia, the French had the same. In Afghanistan, the Russians, the same - the history books tell the rest of the tale. Its not the fault of the fighting man, he is just there to do his job - its the politics or the lack of it behind the scenes where wars are won and lost or where they could have been avoided in the first place.

With almost everthing, one must consider the end of the journey before embarking on it - setting out with no idea where its going to end is fraught with danger. I am sure the planners are taking heavy stock of this as we speak.

I hope war can be avoided but the reality of the situation would appear otherwise.

PP

[SarinMage]

war in this situation is inevitable. we can only start again the process of trying to change things. hopefully this time more will change then before. maybe it wont, but one can always hope.

[shkuey]

Iraq has Egyptian tanks, not Russian tanks, and I seriously doubt he let them rust. They are still seriously outmatched.

We gave egypt tanks in exchange for eqypt giving Iraq tanks, back when Iraq was the lesser of two evils (or however they justified it.)

He's also got our apaches that he used to bomb the kurds.

We should put some kind of remote deactivation code into our **** before we give it to all these other people.

The problem is that our country has not conducted a proper war since WWII. Too much political influence in the military action keeps us from getting the job done.

[rcgreen]

Well Come on all you big strong men
Uncle sam needs your help again
Hes got hiself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Vietnam
So put down your books and pick up your guns
cause were gonna have a whole lot of fun

http://www.lighthorseaircav.com/lit-country-joe.html

[Chuck56]

Egyptian tanks were bought from Russia and maybe now the US. They've never, unless they recently built a factory, built their own. Small point and doesn't matter a helluva lot. The Iraqui tanks in the Gulf War were mostly older Russian T-72 models, not the latest (at that time) T-80s. It would have made little difference, and will make little difference today. Our M-1 Abrams is far superior to anything Russia or Iraq has.

We certainly didn't conduct Vietnam correctly. The Gulf War was a UN action, mostly supplied and supported by the United States. The UN has never won a war, and it'll likely never get its act together, either.