Old Timer
Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Old Timer

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    889

    Old Timer

    Ok been out here a few years see all you fresh faced young people I do admire so much. Fact is though I begain my journey out here when a program was run with punch cards. So I find myself at the end of this youthful knowledge you all have, cause those punch cards gave you a better edu then I had. So we turn to those wonderful hunks of papers those degrees, I recall when people looke at Novell stuff and said OK to the vendor we can work with it let us tweak it and we did and they came up with the CNE, M$ not to be out done came up with the MSCE, MSP, all their stuff none would have been had if it were not for the actual workers with college degrees made theor crap work. Ok rant over point is we now have Linux so what cert can be issued? LCP (Lunix Certified Profissional), or LCNE (Linux Certified Network Engineer) and then face the fact that your degree means nothing after you spend 20 years to re-pay the loans, cause you do not have some private sector company you pay bug bucks to (also a loan to repay) to get a job. Facts is Industry the software industry has undermined this country big time costing billions in faulty products that the people they sell to become sold on the idea no one knows about their product unless the ceretify them. Me I am for not some private secotor for profit corp but a public agency where the fees for testing support the program, not a hunk of paper from a company saying I know what I do. Got a BS joke in my day was a B*ll S**t degree to face the world in computer science. No science to it now days exploited programmers no job security and the bottom line are the share holders profit. Fact is over 40 would not waste my time for another hunk of paper much less from M$ so I sit look over openings all of you will sit where I do one day. Good luck seems my generation screwed up.
    I believe that one of the characteristics of the human race - possibly the one that is primarily responsible for its course of evolution - is that it has grown by creatively responding to failure.- Glen Seaborg

  2. #2
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    15
    Do I detect a little bit of tension?

    Agree on the main point - society DOES seem to be stuck on little bits of paper these days. In England, we are having huge problems with the main exam at 18 ('A' Levels) - there is some speculation that they have been getting easier and easier over the years and this year somebody (not pointing any fingers...) was pushed into marking them down alot - U grades instead of A grades. This has upset alot of students.

    Me, I think the cream will always rise to the top. Only the mediocre, need a bit of paper telling them they are good at something. The good KNOW who they are and people wanting staff can plainly see who can cut the mustard and who can't.

    Alot of qualified people dont know **** about thier chosen subjects be it cars, computers or cooking. The big business qualification just makes it harder to see who the real experts are.


    (Just one little point, Palemoon. It quite a hard post to read, please can you spread out your text a little with paragraphs, Thanx, S ;-)




    Shiraz

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    889
    Oh I just throw out little things maybe points to ponder. Is not the paper any person that invests a ton of money for a degree has in fact shown a high degree of being responsable. Ever repay a student loan as you establish yourself in life? These CNE and MCP, MCSE in fact can be had by passing a test or a few of them. Fact is a snot nosed kid in high school can well matter of fact take and pass these tests while in High School. I do not disrespect these tests admire the people that take and pass them. What I have a problem is that it is not a measure of skill really but in a MFG test of knowledge. Does a CNE, or MCSE teach anything of business, of how to support that business, the face to face people who's paychecks depend upon what you do? Do these certs give anything past knowing the OS and even then one cannot keep it all in their head and have to go to the company web site and read as they install for the latest release. I took a few hits on this but it's OK, however I firmly believe that the measure of skill is not in having passed a manfacture test after all it is slanted to what M$ or Sun, take your pick, they rely upon people to find their flaws give them the info for free and say hey look we have a patch. Fact is the foundiations of both the CNE and MSCE are built upon these single corps and their tests, and fact is they never even had anything to do with making it happen other then exploit the work of college students and staff. (Do a google search!). Me I place the value in what I know based upon the money I spent to get my degree and far more do this then spend what 1,200 US on an MCSE? The day that more value is placed upon a MFG cert then a college or University edu is a sad day, because you become a grad you not only hold the choice of your dream but a rich and valued culture that a cert can never bring. No anger just facts that we cannot replace the value of a college degee and it's rich background with papers issued by M$ or Novell, Sun they were all late and profit form newbies that believe they invented all of this
    Peace
    I believe that one of the characteristics of the human race - possibly the one that is primarily responsible for its course of evolution - is that it has grown by creatively responding to failure.- Glen Seaborg

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Posts
    872
    This is exactly why I want to continue computing as a hobbyist. Sure I'll get an MSCE, sure I'll get an LCNE, and I already program. But I'm not about to sign my life away with some "toughguy" company who treats me like a peice of meat hanging off an oversized hook.

    Genetical engineering is calling my name.

    Although hacking will always be a passion. Hell...I'm *FORCING* my kids to take computer science in highschool. No quesiton about it, they take the class...or...or... *ponders* ... no phone[line].
    ...This Space For Rent.

    -[WebCarnage]

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    97
    I think on this one I'm going to be the antagonist. I probably fit the position perfectly, being only 18.

    From what I can grasp out of your sub par grammatical skills, you have a chip on your shoulder from gaining a college degree 20 or so years ago that has become........obsolete. Your argument seems to take the position of futility in paying large company to allow you to take a test for a certification. Now for my points on the subject.

    1. You're so against these certifications from "big business", finding them to be a tormenting evil within society, that you actually defend the big business of higher learning to do so. Did you ever think about the fact that your college degree that you cling to so dearly was no more than a way for some high classed individuals...or even worse...the government, to profit off of you? In what way is this education any different from certifications? Well let's ponder this.

    a. College takes a minimum of two years, maximum of eight or even higher, where as a certification can be accomplished within months of research, and sometimes less.

    b. College costs thousands of dollars. Certifications usually costs hundreds.

    2. You say a certification is the way businesses judge who is able within the industry. Did you ever contemplate the fact that they are probably used mostly to weed out the ones that aren't? In other words, those who have their certification may or may not be able to accomplish the tasks of the industry, but those who aren't certified probably do not have the ability, because they cannot even pass the test. You may say that this is not so. That just because a person hasn't passed a certification doesn't mean he/she doesn't have the ability, and I would agree with you. But the question at hand is, which one has proven that he/she can actually pass it? Obviously only the one who has passed the damn thing!

    3. Certifications, and the studying required for them, gives a person the opportunity to gain a concentrated level of knowledge in a fairly short time span. Yes, college will teach you more in the long run, but most of what you'll learn will prove useless in day to day operatioins. These certifications are meant to give you the needed knowledge to do the task. They are not made to prove that a person is completely capable in that field with every possible task, but that the basic functions within that job can be accomplished with minimal direction.

    In conclusiong, (finally) you may hate these certifications, but your pride is going to be your downfall. Frankly, I don't care for them, because they group people into small areas of knowledge and skill, not allowing for a great deal of creativity. But it's true that those who have the certifications get the jobs, and the certifications are the only real proof (aside from experience) that an employer can use to decide whether you're adequate for his position or not. Yes, we could go to college, as you did, and get our degree to use that. But the truth is, four years is just too long for some of us. We don't want to wait that long to get into the field. We want to make a difference now, and considering our lifespans, four more years of uninterrupted education is just far too long to learn the things we could learn on our own in a much shorter time period.

    Not only that, but a compilation of college education and certifications can do no harm. This is especially true when considering the fact that almost all the knowledge needed in certification exams has been taught to you through your college experience.

    Once again I apologize for the length, but I felt there was much to be said. Conclusion.
    The radiance of ignorace in a world of nothingness and all of this time your pestilence has created nothing but uselessness

  6. #6
    Senior Member roswell1329's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    670
    Bold statements, imaginedsanity. Bold statements, that I agree with on many levels, but Palemoon has some very good points. Here's how I see the issue:

    For years, the standard has been that to get an education, you go to college. To get training, you go to a technical school, or cram for certifications. While training could be helpful, the positions you could achieve would be limited in advancement. It was the education that would take you far in life because the more in-depth studies you received with a degree supposedly would give you the ability to adapt with your discipline as it changed.

    Enter the Information Age.

    Technology began advancing faster than Panzers over the Polish border, but the educational institutions continued to structure their curriculum, as they had in the past, with strong backgrounds in traditional disciplines. For most institutions, computer science became associated with electrical engineering and computer engineering. This extensive foundation in the traditional discipline of engineering is great for a computer science professor, but corporate America has little use for an individual who can build a complex, triple-redundant circuit, but has no clue about the software environment they are applying to support.

    Software packages and computing environments of the 21st century have become complicated and enough to demand a (smaller) curriculum of their own. The speed of American business has increased 10-fold, and corporations these days can no longer wait for an engineer to learn a new software package when they can get a freshly trained technician with a certificate specialized for their computing environment cheaper and faster.

    However, I personally feel that many corporations will later discover that they're shooting themselves in the foot by recruiting more of the trained professional over the educated professionals. Since software packages today are being built with ease of administration in mind, the certifications are becoming more and more specialized just like the technicians. The engineers that understand the more complex systems underlying the software environments cannot be completely replaced.

    I honestly believe that a gap is beginning to form between today's upcoming CS students and the CS students of the past 15 years. There are entirely too many technologies to try and learn them all, and today's students must pick a track to follow in their studies, while CS students of the past 15 years were required to know something about all the technologies available (since there weren't all that many). Because today's technologies are built on the technologies of the past 15 years, the CS students of yesterday are much better equipped to pick up whatever new technologies they need to learn in any area of computers, while a CS student of today may have trouble learning technologies in any field different from the track they chose.

    Anyway, just my $.02.
    /* You are not expected to understand this. */

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    97
    Good statement Roswell, which coincides well with one of the points I was trying to make, although I don't think I did a very good job. What I was trying to incorporate into the conversation was the fact that having one or the other may not necessarily be enough. Having both is all the more advantageous to the individual, and the one with the broadest range of abilities, who can also specialise in certain areas, will have the greatest potential for advancement within the industry.

    Although this is true, certain individuals, for one reason or another, elect to pursue only one or the other. I myself am seriously contemplating ending my pursuit of a college degree and directing my studies primarily to various certifications. On the other hand, palemoon has currently decide that only a college degree is the preferrable plan of action. Both ways will lead to opportunities, but the point here lies in the accusations. Just because you've decided to stick with your degree gives no merit to mindless bashing of those who are certified. It almost makes you look like you feel inferior to those who have them. I'm not necessarily saying that's the problem, but on the outside, that's what's perceived by others.

    In conclusion of my second rant on this topic, you choose which path you take, but don't degrade those who have chosen differently. We all have our reasons, and only we can judge those reasons based upon our outcomes. Use what you've got, and if you feel you need more, get it. But if you feel adequate in what you have, you shouldn't need to degrade others for pursuing more. We are individuals, and if we all took the same route, we'd all end up in the same exact place. Diversity is the excitement of life.
    The radiance of ignorace in a world of nothingness and all of this time your pestilence has created nothing but uselessness

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    86
    I am somewhere between where Palemoon and imaginedsanity are. I am 30 and what I am seeing is that there is still some value to a college degree today, but the real value is both a college degree and certifications. With the huge and varying numbers of technologies available today there is no way that a college degree is enough on its own. On top of that there are so many people looking for work in the IT market these days that companies really have to be careful who they sign on.

    To finally get to my point, there are so many people going into computer science based fields today that the only way companies can know for sure that they are getting someone who can do the job they need is by getting someone who is certified in the area that they need. Practically everyone has a college degree, but a college degree today is the high-school diploma of yesterday. Because of the number of people going into CS there is a glut in the field and that enables companies to treat us like meat, just like companies treat factory workers and fast-food employees. IT is, in my opinion, slowly becoming a blue-collar field. The pay is going down as the number of people in the area goes up.

    I hope that I haven't offended anyone, but that's how I see it. Young or old, it is necessary in today's job market to keep on top of new technologies and get these certifications.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •