To kill an American cont'd. . .

[bludgeon]

I don't know where the thread went. . .it wasn't suicidal, and was actually really good. . .thank you Allenb for sharing it. . .but here is my two cents regarding the discussion that was going on. . .

I'll prolly get negs for this. . .I mean, I hope I don't, but I really think I will. America is kewl, I love it. . .I love livin' here, but America is takin' the extreme opposite of what England did. You can say "Hey, I've served our country" all you want, but it doesn't mean that you have any grasp of what is really going on. England was ruled by one person. .. slowly but surley the people made themselves present in their government. . . now England is run by Parliment, they evolved, they moved beyond the control of a singular ruler, and their 'supreme ruler' is a figure head, GO England, GO democracy and rule of the people. Myself, as a member of the American society, realize that the exact opposite is happening here. . .G.B. is trying to make the pres. another 'supreme ruler', give the presidency power over all. . .let the person who is president make ALL of the important decisions. . .screw the the House, put a shaft to the Senate. . .the pres. should do what is right for the people. . .heh heh, I disagree, and the reason is exactly what Allenb1963 posted. We are Americans!! Our founding forefathers made documents that are 'vague and up to interperetation', but they are completeley clear, atleast to me, in certain facts. I can worship what I want, as long as I don't harm people in the process. I can say what I want, no matter what people think of my words. The diversity of the people in our nation is what makes America what it is. It seems to me that everyone else, fellow Americans, anyway, wanna take this to the. . .look what we did after the war level, the only reason we rebuild thing, IMHO, after we devistate them is b/c there is something we need from them. . .they represent a resource that we can use which is the only reason why anyone would fight for anything happens. Go ahead, ask anybody you know to stand up for something, no matter what it is. . .they'll ask you "what do I get outta it?", that's human nature. . .that's the sad state of humanity. What's so cool about America, and is reflected in what Allen shared with us, is that the documents we hold dear were written in a way that they give us rights that cannot be taken away. . .poeple who are worlds away, in age and reasoning, had the foresight to give this country the ability to be free from the prejudices imposed by other countries, our country is awesome and could be something greater than what it is. . .but documents are documents. . .and they are left, as I've said, up to interperetation, and the reasoning behind the interperetation is exactly what could bring about the ends to what we like to call 'Democracy'. True Democracy can never exist, we can only fool ourselves into believing that what we have is true Democracy, but what we have, is atleast, the truest to the sense of the word.

[gghornet]

If GWB didn't make all the decisions reguarding the terrorists and Iraq until he did exactly as he was asked to do by presenting his case to everyone,and Congress and the UN are still standing around with their heads up their a$$3$.One way or another something has to be done,I personally support going into Iraq,but would be happy if someone just made a decision and got something done.All the arguing about what should we do is economically tearing this nation apart and it needs to stop one way or the other before we all end up penniless and jobless.There are two major problems in our country as of this point in time,and that's the economy and whether or not we should go to war.If the d@mn government can't make a decision,let the people vote on what we should do.

[Mahakaal]

All the arguing about what should we do is economically tearing this nation apart and it needs to stop one way or the other before we all end up penniless and jobless.

The thread isnt about Iraq GG....or the economy.

[allenb1963]

bludgeon....I ditched the thread because it was starting to turn into a "lets bash America" party, which was far from my intent. I posted that thread to say I'm proud to be a part of a country that is made up of peoples of all nations, all races, and all walks of life. I'm proud to be part of a country that shows compassion when it's needed, and bares it's teeth when it has to. I'm glad I don't have a king or a dictator, that I have a form of control over how I am governed and the freedom to say I disagree in public without fear of reprisal.

To the detractors out there, please stop confusing the American people with the American government. We know there's some bad policies in place, but we can't change things overnite like a dictatorship or a monarchy can...we live in a democracy where change is sometimes slow to come because it comes at the will of the people at regular intervals called elections. This American is hoping things will start to change for the better come November.

[gghornet]

Makhall I'll give you three guesses as to what bill that recently went to congress is being referred to in the statement

"let the person who is president make ALL of the important decisions. . .screw the the House, put a shaft to the Senate."

Now that you've pondered that.What country was that bill brought to Congress for?
This post appears to me to be about who is making the decisions.My post is about how the decisions need to be made one way or another.I wasn't in disagreement with bludgeon about his post,I was adding my two cents about how I feel about the post.

[er0k]

allenb >> for one, the "form" of control isnt so great. sure you could say well i can vote and stuff, but that really makes no difference. they say one vote can change the election, which i agree it "can" but that is a very very slim possibility. what i am getting at with us having a form of control is that hundreds and even thousands of ppl can go and protest somewhere, and the **** just gets brushed away and hardly anything is ever changed. like for instance the rodney king riots. they were showing how we are controlled and cannot change a damn thing unless we are a white politician with money. rodney king was beaten simply because he is black, now im not pointing racism towards this, i am saying that even after those riots, not **** was done besides persecuting the policepersons who eventually and injustly got off. im only kritiking the mindset of the us ppl, who think they have soo much control and soo many freedoms. ill admit we have more than most countries, except for some of the badass european countries.. but we as a nation arent close to as good as we are portrayed. most of the flag wavers and nationalists here dont know **** about what goes on, like the majority of the ppl. thats why there are so many of us. i see your point allenb, and i have nothing against ppl having pride for there country, i just think that it is over-glossed so to speak.

[bludgeon]

Woah, er0k, you bring up the biggest point, we are supposed to be a people for the people, by the people, but the Rodney King incident shows what the government can do when it wants to subdue people. . . .the problem with that. . .yeah there were riots and there where people bringing up arms against the decision, but did they do that when it mattered?? No, they did that when they could and when it was effectual to stealing other people's or business's property. . .they had no consideration toward due process of the law. . .that was completeley people being what people are. . .scavangers, they seized the moment and took what they could. That has nothing to do with our government. . .that was a local incident, that yeah, the police officers involved should have been imprisoned, and not just let go with a slap on the wrist, but that's the problem with control of the majority. . . .our government, by no means, is perfect. . our forefathers never claimed it would be. . .they claimed that the USA would be a free nation, abiding by the constitution and bill of rights(kay the Bill of Rights came later, bout a hundred years later), but we have the means to establish the government we want. . .which is ALOT more than other countries in the world have. . .if you were to establish the same base of documents in other parts of the world. . .they would step up. . .they would have made peaceful demonstrations against the Rodney King decision, they would have demanded justice. America, in itself is great. . .we have an awesome idealism. . .unfortunatley we don't have the commitment to make this country want it could really be.

[er0k]

all i have to say is: april 26, 1992 there was a riot on the streets tell me where were you? u were sittin at home watchin your tv, while i was participatin in some anarchy...

They said it was for the black man
They said it was for the mexican
And not for the white man
But if you look at the streets, it wasn't about Rodney King
It's this *****ed-up situation and these *****ed-up police
It's about comin' up and stayin' on top Riots on the streets if Miami
Whoa, riots on the streets of Chicago
On the streets of Long Beach
In San Francisco
Riots on the streets of Kansas City
Tuskaloosa, Alabama
Cleveland, Ohio
Fountainberry, Paramount, Vista Buelle
Eugene, Oregon
Eureeka, California
Hesperia
Santa Barbara
mother *****in' Nevada
San Diego
Lakewood, Florida


- Sublime - April 26, 1992

this is what i think true nationalism is.



edit : foul language not needed.

[bludgeon]

Nice song, but I was in Philly. . .and there weren't any riots, people were pissed, but no one stole anything beyond the norm that happens in a day. I had friends going to college in Chicago. . .nothing beyond the norm. . .Buckeye friends in Ohio going to school, nothing but people being upset by the situation in CA.. If that is what 'true' nationalism is. . .I hope I'm not living when your generation decides to step up to the plate of our political system.

[imported_all_smiles]

er0k what you were saying about we as an individual whether we vote or not will not make a difference in a election. Individuals alone voting in a nation like the US make little difference. That is why so many Americans do not vote now because individually compared to the mass they do not make a difference. But, the beauty of the system is not that one person is heard or makes a direct difference but that all voters are heard and make an impact, no matter how small or large of a effect what we vote for in the end does count more than hollering in the street or speaking our mind on AO. But I do believe that our governmental system is not perfect by any means and no government ever will be and yes, what happened in the case of Rodney King was a injustice in the highest order no matter what he may have done in the past or even at the time of the incident, in my humble opinion.
Also eric I do believe that Nationalism is a positive thing when taken in moderation. It is one of the main drivers behind change and can be a double edged sword when people become extreme but i do believe that to be proud of your nation is what is neccesary for its existence. Also if you really listen to that sublime song, anarchy is what the song writer was interested in not in making a political statement which he states at the begining of the song. He is intereste in liqour, a new pa and new furniture. Nationalism has to do with pride and the expression of long held national ideals the complete opposite of anarchy.

Sorry if you feel like I am bashing you to much here but I to am a lover of debates.

Also bludgeon I agree people in large numbers can often times become an angry mindless mob while the same people who make up this mob on a individual basis can be intelligent and open minded. People feed off of strong feelings making them do things which they otherwise would not. Unfortunately it is part of human nature though I do believe a part that we could do without.