The U.S. declare war to an ally
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  1. #1
    Hi mom!
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    The U.S. declare war to an ally

    For a few months now my country houses the International Criminal Court (the Hague, Netherlands). I have to say that I'm quite proud the Netherlands have been choosen to host such an imporant wheel of justice.

    Taken from the ICC official home page:
    The proposed International Criminal Court will be a permanent Court that will investigate and bring to justice individuals, not countries, who commit the most serious crimes of concern to the international community, such as genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity-including widespread murder of civilians, torture and mass rape. The ICC will be a global judicial institution, an international jurisdiction complementing national legal systems.
    On the 6th June this year, the US Senate adopted a bill that sanctions military intervention in the Netherlands. This provision is part of the so-called American Servicemembers' Protection Act (ASPA).

    Senator Leahy (Dem). During the amendment debate in the Senate, December 2001:
    As a Congress do we want to authorize a military invasion of The Hague, risking the lives of United States military personnel, to free indicted war criminals?
    This, and the attempts that the US makes to sign agreements with individual countries not to hand over US citizens to the ICC, has offended a bunch of people here.

    (...) the United States of America have categorically rejected the very concept of international law. They base their rejection on the fact that, as the only remaining superpower, they bear exceptional responsibilities.
    This is, of course, entirely correct. But they are currently applying an extremely narrow interpretation of these exceptional responsibilities. As the greatest and most powerful nation in the world, they are claiming to be exempt from the rule of international law — a claim that goes against the concept at the heart of the rule of law, which is of course aimed at limiting the power of the strongest.
    Some of the Dutch have started a symbolic civil defence militia, called "Hogerhand" ("on high authority").

    (...) unarmed civilians are patrolling our beaches 24 hours a day, forming a human shield against the absurd invasion plans of our ally on the other side of the ocean. A shield which may serve as a mirror to our friends, in which they may hopefully see how detached they have become from reality.
    As you can read (most of the quotes above come from the Hogerhand Homepage, which offers lots of information on the mentioned subject) "Hogerhand" has been created to send a signal into the world that some people do not accept the way the United States have told the rest of the world that they are more important than justice itself.

    I ask you to read about Hogerhand, the International Crime Court and the Invasion Act here and afterwards, share your opinion.
    I wish to express my gratitude to the people of Italy. Thank you for inventing pizza.

  2. #2
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    I did a search of the Congressional database and there is no mention in any bill passed between 4 June and the present of an invasion of the Netherlands, The Hauge, or any where near the Low contrires... I think the Hogerhand is just trying to stir up anti-american sentements in your country... as for why the US didn't agree to the ICC IMO it is very simple... The US is the single most hated nation in the world... And as such it wouldn't be far fetched that say Iraq says that US troops commited genocide during the Gulf War and the next thing you know Bush Sr. is being held for trial... Or a soldier kills an armed terrorist and because he is Muslum he is now charged with crimes against humanity for religous presicution...
    \"Nuts!\"- Commanding General 101st Airborne Division Dec 1944 in answer to German request that he surrender Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge
    Life has a certian flavor for those who have fought and risked it all that the sheltered and protected can never experience.- John Stewart Mill
    White, Hetrosexual, Christian male. I own guns, hunt, eat meat, burn wood, and my wife wears fur... Any questions?

  3. #3
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    I think what he's saying 4MH is that if an American was indicted in the International Criminal Court, America has authorised itself to go in and rescue the American using force if necessary. It's not like they have declared war on the Netherlands. But it is still a horrendous diplomatic move and it gives the US the power to do whatever they want during war; they are subject to nobody except themselves. You can go on all you like about Americans being persecuted because your nation is so hated, but their crime would still have to be proved in the court, and if they were guilty, they should be punished appropriately. It would have been a great move on the US' part to endorse the court, but they haven't, and it looks woefully bad. JMHO

  4. #4
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    Offcourse, 'declaring war' is an overstatement. A few months ago (right after the bill was passed) there was this dutch comedian at T.V:

    "Did you hear? The Americans are coming! I suggest we all go sit at the beach, and watch for those combat-ready soldiers to land on our coast and run to the Hague. We can watch them invade our country and leave again while we're in the sun sipping on a soda, sounds like fun to me."
    I wish to express my gratitude to the people of Italy. Thank you for inventing pizza.

  5. #5
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    I am not saying that we are persecuted only that the posibility of it exists... The US has done a fairly good job at policing our soldiers... Not perfect mind you but pretty good... the US military does a good job of keeping soldiers in line... US soldiers have been tried and convicted of crimes during war that range from looting to murder and sentanced to multipe yeears in prison or death depending on the crime... But that is neither here nor there... go to www.congress.gov and do a search of all the bills that have been filed and voted on and you will see that there isn't the Act that Hogerhand and Guus speek of... I checked the dates from June 6th 2001 until the present and there is no such act... I agree that the US probably should have endorsed the court a little bit more and that it probably does look bad in the worlds eyes but then again IMO about 99% of what the US does looks bad in the worlds eyes...
    \"Nuts!\"- Commanding General 101st Airborne Division Dec 1944 in answer to German request that he surrender Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge
    Life has a certian flavor for those who have fought and risked it all that the sheltered and protected can never experience.- John Stewart Mill
    White, Hetrosexual, Christian male. I own guns, hunt, eat meat, burn wood, and my wife wears fur... Any questions?

  6. #6
    Hi mom!
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    The bill is called the American Servicemembers' Protection Act (ASPA). You can read a copy here. Particularly section 3008 is of interest.

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...z85yo:e152439: <-- same thing, although the forementioned section is numbered 2008 here (?)
    I wish to express my gratitude to the people of Italy. Thank you for inventing pizza.

  7. #7
    Kwiep
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    Well the US isn't always wrong and the dutch shouldn't make conclusions to fast, but I surely like the idea to make fortifications at the dutch beach

    With a single click of the mouse, you can send your picture to Hogerhand, and we will ensure that you then appear as a defence guard on the Dutch coast.
    Click here to take your post in the Civil Defence Unit.
    Operational Unit
    If you are living or staying in the Netherlands, you can take part in the actual operations of Hogerhand. Hogerhand's various units build and maintain the fortifications along the Dutch coast.
    Doing thing you weren't suposed to do or not suposed to do as fast as some things the US did, so things Bush ordered, not things all Americans did, isn't nice. Judging people on one mistake (or two or whatever) is not nice either. The whole situation is stupid, I think. and that's is shown bye the useless actions hogerhand do. It's fun especially if you live here in the Netherlands . Because then you really know how ridiculous the whole thing is.

    I just looking at facts and actions here, if someone writes something on a piece of paper and changes it a few days later and changes it again when it's needed, but never actually did what the paper sais I ignore the paper.

    And I'm really sorry for my awfull english grammar and vocabulary.
    Double Dutch

  8. #8
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    H.R. 4775 - Making Supplemental Appropriations for Further Recovery From and Response to Terrorist Attacks on the United States, FY 2002
    This is the actual language used in the bill.

    Here is the language used in the Hogerhand copy...

    IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES—107th Cong., 2d Sess. H.R. 4775 Making supplemental appropriations for further recovery from and response to terrorist attacks on the United States for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2002, and for other purposes.
    Here is what the bill provides for...

    The bill provides critical funds for the Department of Defense (DoD) and the intelligence community to prosecute the global war on terrorism for the balance of FY 2002 and to enable DoD to fulfill related national security missions. Overall, the Committee provides an increase of $1.8 billion over the President’s request for national defense. This additional funding is provided on a contingent emergency basis. The Administration currently has no need for additional funding in these areas.
    Guus I think Hogerhand has been pullling your leg on this one just trying to raise anti-american sentements in your country... The reason I say this is that if this were a senate bill the title would have been S.R. 4775 and not H.R. 4775... H.R. stands for House of Represenatives...


    A summary of H.R. 4775 can be found here
    \"Nuts!\"- Commanding General 101st Airborne Division Dec 1944 in answer to German request that he surrender Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge
    Life has a certian flavor for those who have fought and risked it all that the sheltered and protected can never experience.- John Stewart Mill
    White, Hetrosexual, Christian male. I own guns, hunt, eat meat, burn wood, and my wife wears fur... Any questions?

  9. #9
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    Actually Guus is right Midget. That pdf you link to from the Whitehouse doesnt even mention ASPA but its right there in bill. It's here. The link Guus provided earlier doesnt work anymore so this one might not after a while.
    You can find an article on the ICC and the ASPA at Findlaw.
    Hogarhand doesnt seem to be pulling anyone's leg
    \"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.\" -- Dom Helder Camara

  10. #10
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    I stand corrected... My humble appoligies Guus... I didn't find that one when I was looking...
    \"Nuts!\"- Commanding General 101st Airborne Division Dec 1944 in answer to German request that he surrender Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge
    Life has a certian flavor for those who have fought and risked it all that the sheltered and protected can never experience.- John Stewart Mill
    White, Hetrosexual, Christian male. I own guns, hunt, eat meat, burn wood, and my wife wears fur... Any questions?

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