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  1. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Saddam hasn't complied with UN resolutions for 10 years. What do you think the missle raid on Bahgdad was? He has chemical weapons. That alone should have been enough for his ousting. He's decived, tricked, and been entriely uncooperative since the late 80's. It's amazing that he wasn't tried for convicted for war crimes after Kuwait. He's an evil man.
    In my personal opinion, anyone who thinks that we don't have enough evidence or that Saddam shouldn't be taken from office is being a tad niave.(no offence). France is just being a serious pain. They argue the opposite on basis of mattering. (if that is a word) They still see themselves as a major world power. That is a bygone era for them since WWII. Like this article that I read a few days back; France will eventually agree to support the war effort because the US will go for it regardless of what they say. The US going against that wish is an open admittal to them being unimportant. So they will agree. For them, "it matters to matter."

    Promote Peace! Viva la Evil Power-thirsty Dictators!
    \"Greatness only comes at great risk.\" ~ Personal/Generic

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Putting on binoculars without taking the caps off... sticking two thumbs up at Stevie Wonder...Now who's weird? :/

    Oh, and something else in reply to both Phat_Penguin and Mark Smith:

    Who? The US of A, Canada and the UK.
    When? From 1962 to 1971.
    What? The US of A and Canada tested VX nerve gass on their own 'personnel' in 27 tests (military sources point towards 5,500 as the number of personnel involved). The UK tested Sarin gas on its own personnel.
    Source? Ummm... the Pentagon (October 2002).

    And neel is correct when he says he hasn't seen EVIDENCE yet... sure, we've seen some blurry pictures (take a blurry picture of my appartment, put some red circles around it and call it a nuclear plant.. sure sure) , some blurry 'taped conversations' (maybe they were taping the Iraqi version of the Simpsons... ) , some supposed links between Al-Qauda and Iraq (omg, did they really offer help to a supposed member of Al-Qauda? Sorry, but if a Belgian doctor refused help to someone like that, he'd get sued (even if it were Saddam himself)).
    But then again... guess we're all used to evidence like the evidence offered concerning the Cuba-crisis. Now THAT was a "smoking gun"...

    Since the original poster asked about opinions from about the world: have you guys ever wondered about the links between Bush and the American propaganda you've been fed? ANBC? FOX? I'm not trying to change opinions here, just trying to point out that sometimes it's worth to check multiple sources... (if only I could find a link to the story of an ex-member of the UN-search team who swears that the 'photo's' been shown by Powell are actually photo's been taken in 1991)...

  3. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    I do agree with Negative about US media. It's generally a load of crap. Increasingly in the past 2-3 years the media is more hype and lies than truth. Especially with FOX and CNN. All of their poles and information is extrmely preverted and twisted to meet its Liberal task master's desires. They make 2 times as much news as they report it. And what they do report is only to draw hype or deliver bias to the masses. Also note how entertainment stories are headlined when there are world affairs and people dying. They cover who's new in the music commity rather than Oil crisis in Venezuela etc. etc. I'll just stop now, I could go on for hours. Peace.
    \"Greatness only comes at great risk.\" ~ Personal/Generic

  4. #44
    xenis you provide alot of very good points, however you have to put yourself in the US governments position. The heads of the US have alot of pressure pushing them to fight with Iraq, especially after the Persian Gulf War. Sadaam is a madman and you should definitley not say you have anything against him. The people of iraq do not deserve any more suffering than sadaam has brought to them, and thats the US's standpoint, not only because sadaam has weapons. I agree with you, however. I am not a big US government fan, but again you have to put yourself in their position. I say we get rid of the UN, and just play nice.

  5. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    I researched the US use of nerve agents against its people and from the information I could gather it was 1964 - 1968 and there were 4 tests using this evil stuff .... it was enlightening, thank you Negative (it was news to me) - but I noted the tests were conducted on (?) military personnel and the details at best are sketchy - (as one would expect) - I couldn't find any reports of mass deaths as a result.

    Saddam's 'tests' are at best, pure evil on defenseless men, women and children. The US reportedly scrapped it bio-weapons program in 1997 under treaty (again - so it has been reported). The parallel beween US tests on their people and Iraq's use of nerve agents is in my opinion - is clutching at straws to justify non-action in the current situation.

    During the research I found this site purported to be placed on the web by 'Kurdistan Democratic Party-KDP Revised: 28-01-2003, By Alex Atroushi' about the chemical massacre of the people
    of Halabja by the Iraqi regime March 1988.

    A poignant passage from the site;

    We were burnt as newly-grown plants,
    In the current of poisonous winds,
    And showed our dreadful wounds,
    From one side of the world to the other.
    But the unjust eyes of the world
    Were never opened truly towards the oppressed.
    The world only confined itself to a false regret,
    And once again,
    We became a target as heaps and heaps of martyrs,
    We were the target of poisonous bombardments,
    We were the target of destructive bombs,
    And we remained the lonely oppressed ones of the world.
    We rose from under tons of debris,
    And stood up in the lands of poisonous bombings,
    And we kept up standing and fighting,
    Believe it, you people of tomorrow,
    Believe such a history and learn a lesson,
    Learn how to fight oppression in this way.*

    * From the poem "Khaibar" by Mohammed Reza Abdol-Malakian.
    I include the following warning, and do not do so lightly ....


    This is why I say Saddam needs to be ousted from power and all the evidence I need;


    Setting aside this WMD debate, as members of civilised nations and following the threads and comments we are obviously fighters/believers in our own equal rights, freedom and humanity - so why do we allow people like this to continue on their merry way ? Why don't the people of Iraq deserve the same freedoms we do - with all due respect to their cultural beliefs, of course ?

    Why do we wait for one nation to take a stand against it, then nit pick over 'we want this evidence and that evidence' when there is volumes of evidence against this dictator over his treatment of his own people, if for that reason alone he needs to go - and as members of a global nation we should help the people of Iraq get rid of him.

    No one said it will be easy, no one has said it will be pretty, throughout history many people before us have laid down their lives to give us the unbridled freedoms and lives we now happily lead - and many from other countries may have died within your borders protecting your way of life. How many Americans, Englishmen and Australians lie in graves throughout Europe in the defence of the defenceless/overwhelmed - lest we forget, people - lest we forget.

    'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.' Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    I am with the war against iraq cause i think they are a threat towards the world remember guys its not just Usa is the Uk aswell we may be small be we are god damm mighty lol
    Bin Laden was never found and Sadam is still around so i reckon we should go to war to stop him attacking any more inocent people as far as im concered he has been hiding weapons of mass destruction away and lying about them you see that was a bad mistake!

    This is my opinion

    Hope this doesnt affend any one cheers guys

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    I agree Sadaam is a madman and he and his friends should be put in jail or where ever he can't kill his own people anymore. I think none of us deny Sadaam is a murderer. I don't like the idea though the US of A and the UK moving to a second gulf war, even possibly takeing nukes with them (no proof of that though). Iraq needs to be saved, not exterminated.

    There's only one problem with that. The US of A and the UK are much more stronger and in the last war there the fight was over in a few days. This is because they have much advantages in technology. Plains, tanks, all much faster stronger etc. Bit if this time only Sadaam and his friends are the target, you probably have to fight a war on a more equal level. That's a point of fair... even if you fight for a good cause. People ain't going to repeat a war like Vietnam and Korea. In a war like that the US of A and the UK will loose most of their advantage, exept the one that they just have much more man and (maybe) better trained. People will die though and in any war and especially in this place in history, people don't like dying in a war.

    The reason for a big assault would be fear I think. Fear for loosing many soldiers and that's a good reason. A shame thing is that this argument is the one I heard least of all. I almost never heard the reason of Sadaam killing his own people as a motivation to this war. I heard terrorist, oil and some others. Sadaam is killing his own people since the last war there and even before that already. The US of A didn't interfere with that before. They kicked Iraq back to their own borders and that's it.

    'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.' Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
    Good men should do something, but they should do it the right way.

    I just found out there's a sort of censored book in the netherlands. The least thing I would expect here: a censored book, in a land were drugs are illigal (in some way). Mein Kampf, Hitler's book, may not be published here. I think people should have a right to choose their own way of life to some extend. People shouldn't be forced into our democratic system. The next border is people still should be served by... (lack of english vocabulary) ... some humanitary rights like no discrimination or killing or I don't know what. I understand this book is forbidden, because it doesn't serve those rights. I still doesn't only contain bad things. OK, don't quote me on that, but I'll try to explain a little. A friend read the book and well Hitler based many of his idea's on Nietzsche' s books. Nietzsche was talking about obermensch (interpretation of a dutchy out of german in english: man who is "further"). Hitler talked about ubermensch (man who is "better"). There is a difference in that.

    Sadaam has to be stopped, but who are the good men ? In my opinion that not the US of A or the UK ... yet.
    Double Dutch

  8. #48
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003


    Negative - "Oh, and something else in reply to both Phat_Penguin and Mark Smith:

    Who? The US of A, Canada and the UK.
    When? From 1962 to 1971.
    What? The US of A and Canada tested VX nerve gass on their own 'personnel' in 27 tests (military sources point towards 5,500 as the number of personnel involved). The UK tested Sarin gas on its own personnel.
    Source? Ummm... the Pentagon (October 2002). "
    2 points on what you say here. -are you trying to justify what sadam insain does by what you are saying above? are you trying to say that it is ok for sadam to do these things because "the us of a has done them" do you have to find a nation of only the pure of heart to remove evil from this earth. i hear an argument like this all the time and frankly it is stupid and slanted with evil. people don't think some evil person should be taken out because anouther evil is going to do it. i think the fact is that some people just don't like bush, or republicans, that i think is the real reason for such logic.
    look at the link by phat_penguin and maybe you can understand why i get VERY upset about the deffence of sadam.

    as for the issue of what you say is true or not. i am not sure i do know that every time i get in a debate with a left wing they start telling me all these obscure ref. to EVIL things the white man or US of A has done. like Noem Chompsky, if you read his books all his arguements are full of obscure facts and he has been provin to be makeing them up many times. I am sorry if i get upset at people in this bored but the fact is (if any news sorces are remotely correct, and i have looked at a # of them) then saddam is like a bad mix of hitler and stallin and it makes me F*#$ing sick when people wanna go on about -well he hasn't really done much wrong, why can't we just let him be, BUSH KNEW. and all that crap every one has heard a million times. people stop thinking with your hate for republicans and start thinking with your love of your fellow man. sadam in evil as evil as people can get he has power and needs to be taken out

    i think this is going to be my last post on this thread because - "to the makeing of many" political arguements "there is no end and much devotion to them is tireing to the flesh"

    long live the capitalists,
    mark smith

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Mark: have I ever said that I justify Saddam's actions? This debate is NOT about whether he's a madman or not, it's about HOW the US is planning on settling the conflict. I don't justify what Saddam has done (I don't even doubt it. Iraq, Iran and Turkey have all used nerve gass against Kurds. Nerve gass supplied by Germany in this case.). You stated that 'maybe it has something to do with the fact that we don't use chemical wepons on our own people to test them', I called you on that one. Maybe a little low, but definitely not from some "obscure left wing sources".
    Fox News
    USA Today

    True or not? You decide.

    You get upset about the defense of Saddam? Who upset you, then? I didn't stand up for him, and I never will. I'd like to know something else though: do you get upset by people defending Ariel Sharon? If you don't (your government obviously doesn't), take a look at this: Sabra and Shatila massacre (extremely graphical).

    My point in this? The way the media and governments decide who is a madman and who not, and when they are and when not. Phat_Penguin mentioned the bombing of Halabja:
    Remember how before 1990 Iraq was the US's best friend? In May 1990, American Intelligence claims that Iraq does not have cyanide, nor produces it. The bombing of Halabja (a Kurdian city) in 1988 is blamed on Iran (the US's arch-enemy before 1990).
    Enter the Gulf War (following on the August 1990 invasion of Kuwait by Iraq). Enter the CIA with proof that Iraq DOES have cyanide.
    And let's not forget that the US in the '80s provided Iraq with anthrax and other WMD's (Senate report, May 25, 1994, 198 pages - another obscure left-wing source).

    The question in this debate is not (at least not for me) who the real madman is. The question is HOW to solve the crisis.
    By going to war? By bombing the country to hell? By killing both Iraqi and American soldiers? I have some objections against that option. Iraq may have WMDs (although I stay by my opinion that I have not seen real proof yet). What good would a war be? How will you be sure that after the war the WMDs will be gone? You won't. You will if you let the weapons inspectors do their work. Once you know what exactly Saddam owns, where it is and what state it is in, you hit Saddam right where he doesn't like it. Monitor his arsenal, and you have him in your grip. I have to agree that the threat of a war might help the inspectors to do a better job though. Is a war THE way to take out Saddam? I don't think so...

    It still bothers me that Iraq is the big enemy right now. Why isn't Israel? Turkey? Korea? Iran? Both Iran and Turkey have been guilty of using nerve gass against Kurdish minorities. Both Iran and Turkey still have WMDs. Israel violates UN resolutions every day...

    er0k suggested to get rid of the UN. No more UN, no more UN resolutions, no more resolutions for Iraq to break, no more reasons for a war...

    Call me left wing, I don't care. Better than right wing anyways. And I'm more a capitalist than your average American, Mark.
    And comparing Saddam to Stalin or Hittler would do both of them short...

  10. #50
    Old Fart
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    I've read through this thread several times, promised myself to stay out of it, yet here I am. I've scaled down the perspective from which this issue is viewed, hopefully to make my PERSONAL POV a bit easier to understand. First and foremost, I will state I would prefer to see this settled by peaceful means if at all possible. That being said, on to the scaling down....

    I live in a small town (the world) that has several neighborhoods (continents) divided by various geographic features (oceans). Several years ago in one of the other neighborhoods, one of the residents (who hated me, btw) started threatening some of my friends and was disrupting the whole neighborhood in the process. Some of the people in that neighborhood didn't want me wading in and trying to settle the dispute, asking instead for me to help in other ways....like giving them the support (weapons) they needed to settle it themselves. I agreed to this (in retrospect a STUPID decision) and left the bulk of the situation to be settled by the residents of the neighborhood.

    After that dispute was settled things really started getting messy. The guy that offered to settle the earlier dispute got "two-faced" on me and started using the support items I had given him on people IN HIS OWN HOUSE (a mistake that I too had made earlier, but as one member said, two wrongs don't make a right.) in full view of the entire town. To make matters worse, this guy went to a different neighborhood and bought himself a catapult so he could use the stuff that I gave him on his neighbors, who happen to be friends of mine also. Then the idiot goes and TAKES OVER his next-door neighbors house, tells all the residents that they will now be living by his rules, and if they don't like it then they can leave or die. The head of that household came to me to help him get his house back. So off I go, trying to clean up the mess I made.

    So I get my friends house back for him and start to move in on the two-faced next-door neighbor, but along come the courts (the U.N.) telling me that the matter is considered settled and sending me home....the court set up a patrol (weapons inspectors) at this guys house to keep an eye on him, laid a stiff fine (economic sanctions) on him and declared the matter settled.

    But it wasn't settled....12 years ago the guy threw the patrols out of his house, started working odd jobs (illegal trading, which the court had told him he couldn't do) and taking the money to buy more stuff to attack his neighbors with, even though the people in HIS OWN house were sick and starving. He started (and is still) trying to get stuff that is even more destructive than the stuff I gave him. He is trying to intimidate anyone who opposes him with the threat of violence and destruction. He has been accused of trying to buy (or build) bigger catapults so he can lob stuff at the people down the street too, not just his next door neighbors. If left unchecked (based on his previous behaviour) he will eventually get his hands on a catapult that can reach anywhere in the entire town. In the meantime, according to his son, he has people with bombs in MY HOUSE as well as the homes of some of my neighbors. He says that if I make a move to stop him, he will start bombing my house, not a pleasant thought IMHO. He went as far, btw, as to let the patrol back into his house, but he has a reputation for being deceitful and burying stuff under the house so it won't be found. I find his sincerety about wanting a peaceful resolution questionable at best

    That being said, can anyone here tell me how to resolve this conflict without burning him and his house down? I know if I do that it will upset some of the people in the town (most likely the ones who have been able to prosper because of him *cough* France...Russia *cough*), but given his total disrespect of the court system (U.N.) and the rules it imposes, I'm having problems seeing a way out of this situation that will keep the majority of the town happy. Some of my friends want me to let the courts handle it, but this guy has already shown that he WILL NOT obey the orders of the court. I know that I had a lot to do with causing the situation in the first place, and I want to clean it up before it gets more out of hand than it already is.

    Again, I stress that I am NOT ADVOCATING war....I'm just having trouble finding alternatives that will get the results that the town wants to see.

    Neg.....I understand your position and even agree with some of your points regarding the media and such here. But I will point out to you that before he builds a catapult that can hit my house, he will build one that can reach yours. Food for thought.
    It isn't paranoia when you KNOW they're out to get you...

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