Crime and Punishment
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  1. #1
    Senior Member SodaMoca5's Avatar
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    Crime and Punishment

    Today I went to this article from the Drudge report website. At first I read it with some amusement then a bit of trepidation and finally anger.

    http://www.gopbi.com/partners/pbpost...05260000b.html

    In a nutshell you have an 11 year old boy who sneaks back into his classroom and changes 5 grades on his teachers computer and saves it. The school is talking about suspending him for 10 days and possibly expelling him while the prosecutor is prosecuting him for a 2nd degree Felony and is talking about years in juvenile hall.

    What is this country coming to? Are we so hackerphobic that any "crime" that involves a computer is prosecuted more severely. This kid didn't even "Hack" into the system, it was open to him and he merely typed in different numbers. I mean wake up, this is an 11 year old kid who cheated. Sure, he should be punished. Maybe a suspension (10 days?, I could see one or two), I would be more inclined to give him detention after school for a week (1/2 hour a day) and notify his parents. Honestly how many people cheated when they were that age or even older. I won't admit that I did because with these kinds of punishments they might come and take back my engineering degree for possibly cheating on a 4th grade math test (note I have said possibly and this should not be taken as an implication that I actually did cheat on a number of 4th grade math speed multiplication tests at Mark Twain Elementary School).

    Personally I think being handed over to the Sherrif and going through booking and waiting at the station for his dad was probably more than enough punishment. I believe that would certainly put things in perspective for him. Now to threaten him with Juvenile hall? What is that going to teach him? How is that going to help? He could meet new friends like the12 year old murderer, and the 11 year old crack dealer. These would certainly provide a more positive learning atmosphere than staying at home and going to school (well maybe better than going to his current hypocritically led school).

    This type of over reaction really concerns me. A kid who attempts to cheat gets treated worse than a kid with mental problems who hurts others. Just like the girl who got suspended for bringing a knife to school. It was a butter knife which she brought to cut the brownies she had to share with her class on her birthday. I am sure that in both these cases a serious life in crime is being averted by the system using the law rather than a bit of common sense. Personally I think the kid should get a slight pat on the back after his punishment. After all he formulated a plan, manipulated things to gain access back into a restricted area, and carried out a potentially successful attempt at cheating in a fairly new and unique way. Planning, initiative, thought, and action are all traits we want to teach kids. He is punished because he got caught something we are certainly teaching him, and others, to be more careful about in the future.

    My final comment is that part of the reason this seems to be blown way out of proportion is because it involved a computer. SO WHAT! As stated previously he didn't hack into the computer nor into the mainframe. He changed what the teacher had left open. In the same way as someone might erase and change their grade in a standard paper ledger. I believe the real criminal here is a prosecutor and a principal who are so eager to cover their own butts and make headlines that they would persecute an overzealous but otherwise normal 11 year old.

    The only positive thing is that this kid, if he does get sent down the river can come out and write a book about how to manipulate teachers so they give you an opportunity to change your grades.
    SodaMoca5
    \"We are pressing through the sphincter of assholiness\"

  2. #2
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    i agree, the "hacking punishment" should be left for actual hackers that are actually meaning to bring harm to the schools computers. i mean come on people, this kid is harmless and seems as though he knows nothing about anything that they are charging him for in the courts! ya, i would understand if he was hacking onto the legislature on the schools computers! BUT CHANGING GRADES THAT WERE ALREADY OPEN... like sodamoca5 said, what is the world coming to! obviously the county is hackophobic and yet im still reading articles about the government thinking about hacking into other countries defences! COME ON! make up your mind Bush! hacking or no hacking! just come to a clear outcome! and yet this 11 year old kid is still being charged for crap that doesnt have anything to do with his position, i say that americans are hipicritical, and over-reacting, myself included! i mean i dont over-react that much but come on, we all do it every now and then. i kinda went off the subject but its all to bring up a point, america is definately messed up if they believe hacking is so bad and yet the government sits here and hacks other countries defences and taps computers that are caught downloading files that they dont want people to access! we will never understand our hipicritical government, and for that little 11 year old boy! dont worry about it bro, ya, it may go on your record, but get a good lawyer and have some persuasive words and maybe they will let u off of the "hacking" charges, even though he didnt do it... well im at school so i guess i should shut up and get off the computer! oh ya! and kid! I like your style, lol very nice, planning, thinking, and great timing and you did a great job weather or not the government likes it!
    Peace out!
    Stoner Bob
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  3. #3
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    Re: Crime and Punishment

    Originally posted here by SodaMoca5
    Today I went to this article from the Drudge report website. At first I read it with some amusement then a bit of trepidation and finally anger.

    http://www.gopbi.com/partners/pbpost...05260000b.html

    Personally I think being handed over to the Sherrif and going through booking and waiting at the station for his dad was probably more than enough punishment. I believe that would certainly put things in perspective for him. Now to threaten him with Juvenile hall? What is that going to teach him? How is that going to help? He could meet new friends like the12 year old murderer, and the 11 year old crack dealer. These would certainly provide a more positive learning atmosphere than staying at home and going to school (well maybe better than going to his current hypocritically led school).

    I agree completly. The booking would have scared the s#$%^ out of me when I was 11. It seems the kid committed a wrong of oppurtunity. Dention and a grounding by the parents I would think would be sufficent to prevent that from happening again. I'm sure he could pick up all sorts of usefull skills in JV (how to pick locks, shut of alarms, hot wire a car, etc).

    I think its scary when people who do not understand technology punish those who do for wrongs that are technically not illegal. Found an unlocked computer and changed his grades. He did not break into the school nor did he "crack" the computer.

    -There are more narfiours (sp?) malicous hackers that the procescutor can spend his time catching and punshing.

    Cheers,
    -D
    If you spend more on coffee than on IT security, you will be hacked. What\'s more, you deserve to be hacked.
    -- former White House cybersecurity adviser Richard Clarke

  4. #4
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    Angry PPPPLLLLLEEEEAAASSSEEE!!!!!

    OH MY GOD! Ok, next lets find a 5 year old who happens to know how to turn on his teachers computer, and convict him of attempted tampering of school property or something! I mean that's what is sounds like. Yes I understand, we want to explain to the youth that hacking/cracking/especially being bad is not right. But come on, W T F! I'm surprised they don't want to send the 11 y/o to a "pound me in the ass prision" and use the explination "This will teach him a lesson for when he grows up". I mean I understand that sometimes judges and the "people" like to take people and use them as an example to others, but a 11 y/o.

    Talk about wanting to screw up someone's life. 2nd degree Felony, that wouldn't look good. He's going to go for an interview at burger king (since that's the only place that will let him work with a record) and they will laugh at him for his charges.

    Really what all these law makers and "officals of law" need to do is take their thumbs out their ass and think about if THEIR kid did something like that, or someone they know's kid did that. Then all you would hear is "why is the system being so hard on these kids, I'm going to do everything in my powers to help them out" and crap like that. It's all a double standard, because they would go after anyone until it hits close to home... then you know they'd have a heart. Crap like that is stupid!

    And coming from a personal happenings, once labelled always labelled. And you'll get into high school, if the kid continues to like computers and goes to do something, the admins will taget that kid if there is anything that slightly goes wrong. It's stupid, and wrong.

    I know that might be a little off subject, but still these people don't think about the future. The kid doesn't know any better. They watch stuff on TV and what not, and yeah the kid might need a day suspension and a nice kick in the pants if he tries it again, but not a 2nd degree felony on his record at that age! EVen if it comes off at 18 or whatever, that's still something that will follow him. Plus the social impact at school.
    [shadow]There is no right and wrong, only fun and boring...
    Formatting my server because someone hacked into it sounds pretty boring to me...
    That\'s why it\'s all about AntiOnline.com!
    [/shadow]

  5. #5
    AO's Fluffy Bunny cdkj's Avatar
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    I agree with you on this 100% the school administrators will make example out of this 11yr old and his parents. What i would like to know is why the teacher left it unlock in the first place?

  6. #6
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    exactly.... I know around here everything is security this and seciruty that. I mean Windows computers have at least a logoff feature when leaving the room...that adds some security. But really these people should be using an NT platform where they can lock the terminal, or at least some sort of security program!

    Speaking of the teacher, I agree that the teacher has some blame here. One the kids under the age of 18, better yet under the age of 13, so come on. The teacher is responcible for the childrend, ALL of them in their class. So if the kid is getting a 2nd degree here, then what about the teacher? Should be like assitance of hacking or something. LOL (too tired to think)
    [shadow]There is no right and wrong, only fun and boring...
    Formatting my server because someone hacked into it sounds pretty boring to me...
    That\'s why it\'s all about AntiOnline.com!
    [/shadow]

  7. #7
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    how severe would the punishment be if a student snuck back into a room and changed the grades in a teachers grade book... leaving computers out of it. In my school the student would have been expelled. not saying this is fair but it is a severe breach of every code there is. what this kid did is much more than just cheating. we're talking unauthorized access and altering records but certainly not on a par with how their dealing with it. The teacher was stupid to leave the computer un-attended and logged in but i think the blame falls compleatly on the student.
    Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”

  8. #8
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    < rant >

    Exactly, there needs to be punishment, I won't argue there. But I think I (and some other of us) feel that the child is just being hit way too hard. Plus we are saying what if it wasn't a computer, just a grade book, would they still be going after a 2nd degree felony? Plus from the sounds of it, the teacher has no blame.

    Maybe it's not really the teachers fault though, maybe the school should be at fault. Because the question is if the school had any security software on the computer/running an NT based OS. If that's true, then the teacher should be at fault for not locking the computer and make it secure. That student, or anyone could have gotten into very private information.

    Now if the school is stupid and just running like running Windows 98 with no security lockup apps, then the school should sit and rethink how they are going about things. I mean come on, again it goes back to anyone could have gotten into that computer.

    I think if they are charging the kid with a 2nd degree felony, they really do need to think about their security plans. Because what if that kid had unleashed a virus, speading through the whole grading system (if it's connected) or just on that computer. He could have set it up and the teacher would have never known. Don't laugh, because I know a bunch of really young kids around the age of 13 and slightly under who know more than the average user about computers.

    Now if the kid would have set off a massive virus to kill the grading system on the computer, or if it was networked, the entire network... what would his charge be then, dead? I donno, it just bugs me about how harsh they are being. Being expelled is still less severe than a 2nd degree felony I think. And the kid really didn't do anything, I see it as the same as looking across the room at someone elses paper for a test. That's why I say he could have done more, then what... and why is he the only one at fault?

    </rant>

    I'm sorry if I'm going on. I've just seen personally what school admins can do. And I just feel for the kid.
    [shadow]There is no right and wrong, only fun and boring...
    Formatting my server because someone hacked into it sounds pretty boring to me...
    That\'s why it\'s all about AntiOnline.com!
    [/shadow]

  9. #9
    Senior Member SodaMoca5's Avatar
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    Tedob1, you and I are in complete agreement that the blame lies squarely on the boy. He cheated, he deserves punishment. My only comment here was that things were being taken too far in my opinion. I think it is dangerous to start laying blame elsewhere for the incident. If the teacher broke school policy by leaving the computer unattended or unlocked then the teacher bears the blame for that and only that. If the school has no security policy or a very lax one then they are to blame for that, but only that. Neither the school nor the teacher encouraged or forced the kid to cheat. This can not even be seen as a case of entrapment since the kid obviously had to trick his way to get back to the classroom to gain the access.

    However, I do think age must be called into question here. The kid is 10 so I do not ascribe the harsher aspects of unauthorized access and altering records. To me, at that age, it is simply a different form of cheating and should be punished as cheating. If the kid were older (and no I cannot set a hard age but would have to know the level of awareness rather than just the calendar age) then to escalate the penalty because of the seriousness of altering official records would make more sense to me.

    I hope I did not indicate that I thought the kid was innocent or that blame should be shifted. I dislike that our society seems to want to place the blame on anyone but the perpetrator anymore. Again my only gripe was that I think the system is taking it too far to bring criminal charges against the kid.
    SodaMoca5
    \"We are pressing through the sphincter of assholiness\"

  10. #10
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    Ok I will agree with you there, if I was not clear before then I am sorry. I'm not saying that "blame shold be shifted", but I'm saying there are other parties here that also need to take heat for stuff that was done. Yes the boy cheated, yes he shold be punished, and we agree that it just shouldn't go to the extreme as it is. But the teacher and or school can't use that as a scape goat for there being no security on the computer TO LET the child cheat. That's all I'm saying here, why is no one asking questions rather than just saying "the kid did this, end of story".

    Like I said before I went through stuff like that in high school, and I was innocent of the crime I was convicted of by the administration. But rather than show me the actual evidence, rather than saying I did it, they just said that is how things were. And when I went to higher people, all they wanted to talk about was "putting (me) back on the right path in life, so (I) did not becomre a terrorist" - and this was before 9/11.

    I don't like how everything is focused on the child and no one else, because if there was security measures in place, maybe the child would never have even thought about it. Kind of like taking a cookie before dinner after your mom already said no, if you think no one's watching arne't you going to anyway... and is that only because at that age certain things aren't exactly in place mentally in CHILDREN'S heads?

    The icing on the cake is what the child's being chared with! That's just insane!!! But ok I just wanted to add that. I'm sorry, I get a little heated in debates. Nothing personal!
    [shadow]There is no right and wrong, only fun and boring...
    Formatting my server because someone hacked into it sounds pretty boring to me...
    That\'s why it\'s all about AntiOnline.com!
    [/shadow]

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