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  1. #1
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    Legal Notices, Licensing, Reprints, & Permissions, Privacy Policy

    of course all documents like this are laid out to cover the assets of those concerned in exceptional circumstances. however, not being the legal expert that i am not, i have difficulties interpreting certain areas of such agreements/documents/safety nets (basically a yay or nay would be nice). most people probably don't bother read these things as they have little impact on their lives, but...seeing as none of us can tell the future...there is always a "BUT"...

    You agree to grant to JUPM a non-exclusive, royalty-free, worldwide, sub licensable, perpetual license, with the right to sub-license, to reproduce, distribute, transmit, create derivative works of, publicly display and publicly perform any materials and other information (including, without limitation, ideas contained therein for new or improved products and services) you submit to any public areas of the Site (such as bulletin boards, forums and newsgroups) or by e-mail to JUPM by all means and in any media now known or hereafter developed. You also grant to JUPM the right to use your name in connection with the submitted materials and other information as well as in connection with all advertising, marketing and promotional material related thereto. You agree that you shall have no recourse against JUPM for any alleged or actual infringement or misappropriation of any proprietary right in your communications to JUPM.
    does this basically mean that JUPM claims to own every last character of data in the forum, just because JUPM owns the forum, regardless of who actually wrote it? thereby allowing JUPM to legally profit from ideas etc. contained within the forum? what about members journals, etc.?

    In connection with your use of the Site, you agree you will not:

    a) Transmit any message, information, data, text, software or images, or other content ("Material") that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, or otherwise objectionable that may invade another's right of privacy or publicity;
    who decides if someones "right of privacy or publicity" is invaded? and how can conversation develop in the cosmos forum.

    b) Impersonate any person or entity, including but not limited to, an JUPM official, forum leader, guide or host or falsely state or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation with a person or entity;
    i like this one for two main reasons. firstly, it prohibits anyone from impersonating people, like santa claus or michael jackson. and secondly, you use an before a word beginning with a vowel, a e i o u, and although my english ain't perfect, this "an" looks great in this professional document. of course you don't say "an unicorn" so perhaps a similar oddity exist for the letter J.

    c) Post or transmit any Material that you do not have a right to reproduce...
    do i have the right to reproduce the JUPM Web Site User Agreement as i have done in quotation tags?

    4. Equipment
    naturally

    5. Indemnification and Reservation of Rights.
    smashing!

    Our advertisers may use single-pixel gifs that can track personal information from cookies that may have been previously placed on a user's computer by an advertiser.
    i am on the verge of bed, so forgive me if i am failing to see where it says exactly what personal information "may" be "tracked". and is this just any ole advertisier, or one affiliated with JUPM?

    When you sign up for an JUPM discussion forum, your name or alias is recorded solely for purposes of maintaining your own account within the forums. This information is not used to monitor your activity within a forum, nor is it used to identify you outside the JUPM network.
    -nc-

    What other information do you request?

    ...

    We maintain a strict "No-Spam" policy that means that we do not sell, rent, or otherwise give your e-mail address to a third-party, without your consent or as permitted by this Privacy Policy.
    written using the hyper text markup language i am sure it would have been no trouble to link to exactly where in the document it is "as permitted by this Privacy Policy", more of a courtesy really.

    What information do you collect when I register for something?

    JUPM offers access to some services that require registration. We may use your registration contact information to send notification to you of JUPM products and services by e-mail and/or postal mail. We also may share that information with our clients. Our clients may send you promotional material that is related to the topic of the service for which you registered. We may also use your IP address internally and share it with third parties. See Will you disclose the information that you collect to outside third parties?
    is this where? and also, is this covered by the "we will only send you stuff if you agree to it" thing that was written latter to this?

    i could have posted this under the site suggestions, emploring the powers that be to write seperate (longer if necessary) universally understandable "no two ways about it" plain english versions (encorporating features allowable for ease of navigation in HTML) of the Legal Notices, Licensing, Reprints, & Permissions, Privacy Policy.

    or perhaps someone would be motivated enough to write a tutorial on personal security and understanding EULA's and the like.



    Ultimately, you are solely responsible for maintaining the secrecy of your personal information. Please be careful and responsible whenever you're online.
    once again, Naturally!

    edit: E&OE
    Hmm...theres something a little peculiar here. Oh i see what it is! the sentence is talking about itself! do you see that? what do you mean? sentences can\'t talk! No, but they REFER to things, and this one refers directly-unambigeously-unmistakably-to the very sentence which it is!

  2. #2
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    Great point Seen it but never thought to read it. That why security is so important these days your only a victim of what U don't know. JUPM they always bother me with ads:-(

  3. #3
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    For the first question in the original post, the answer is; "Yes, they own everything you post or transmit to them." Going one further, they also own the "idea", if you follow that concept. Whatever you post, or whatever you transmit, belongs to them. Furthermore, if you post something, or they take the idea and run with it, and a third party sues for infringement, guess who gets the summons? There are also a couple of well-known "free" hosting services that have the same small-print. They claim that it is used so they can be protected in displaying your website, however i for one cannot agree that wording is necessary for a hosting service, free or otherwise, to display a client's work. Some years ago (well, maybe two years...) one of the largest free-host services had the same general wording (although it was not so drastic as what you have related here) and they subsequently changed it after loosing a significant number of clients and catching a healthy dose of criticism in several other forums frequented by authors and artists. They said they never intended to word it that way, just the lawyers had run-amuck without being noticed.
    As for your question as to whether posting their conditions here for the purpose of legitimate discussion and academic review in a technical forum.... check the "Fair Use" section at the Library of Congress.
    "Free" is not always ...free, whether it be hosting or any other "service".

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    bugnosis hasn't detected any web-bugs here yet (one-pixel third party graphics) but i guess its just a matter of time. its seems corps always think their right to make money supersedes our right to privacy. As soon as one shows up ill post a heads up for any concerned.

    i didnt read it either so thanks for the heads-up on this one (V)/\><.
    Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”

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    Phaza> Great point Seen it but never thought to read it.
    Me> have you read it now? spot anything else in it that is "interesting"?

    The Old Man> "Yes, they own everything you post or transmit to them."
    Me> to clarify once again - they own your custom avatar (providing it doesn't already infringe on any copyrights, and if it does and they use it as a logo for something and get sued, it all falls in your lap), they own that picture in your profile that you spent hours creating, ha! they own your profile, they own your username...antipoints...your existence inside this little universe onto itself...etc.

    The Old Man> ..."free" hosting services that have the same small-print.
    Me> as an example Web1000 offers free hosting with no advertising. in their Legal Stuff page they tip-toe and dance around the issue of who owns the "content" or "idea" behind the site that you give them to host. really it was quite an entertaining read, but the bottom line is that they own your site. if your site becomes popular for whatever reason they can start by ""Using some of your alotted webspace"" for storing ""Anything they want"". In addition, they claim they can render the page however they see fit <cough> insert advertisements </cough>.

    i just linked to a vbforum from a thread in here and was interested to find that JUPM also owns the vbforum site.
    Tedob1> bugnosis hasn't detected any web-bugs here yet
    Me> what about at http://www.vbforums.com/ ?
    it contained the same legal information. i couldn't help but comment on this eye-sore,
    f) Use the Site’s communication features in a manner that adversely affects the availability of its resources to other users (e.g., excessive shouting, use of all caps, or flooding continuous posting of repetitive text);
    so it appears that all are in agreement that use of caps should be reserved for shouting in the forum - to stress importance, annoyance...etc. - execessive shouting is forbidden as it hard/annoying to read the capital letters.

    so it should not be too hard to see that those who read forums are of this opinion and have a dislike for reading caps. so strong is this communal opinion that it is written in stone (ha!) in the Legal Notice.

    now to quote (perhaps excessively) from another sources' work, Kenneth J. Colby US DOD Artificial Intelligence researcher and psychiatrist.
    Personality Profiling And Simulation Systems, an advanced technology used in military war games, FBI profiling, political campaigning, and advertising:

    ·unenlightened human minds are combinations of infantile beliefs and emotional patterns
    ·these patterns can be simulated in profiling systems
    ·these profiling systems can be used to program and control people
    i must admit that the JUPM Legal Notice is not by any means the worst or hardest to follow, some of these docs are written ENTIRELY in caps. back to the JUPM agreement,
    PLEASE READ THIS DOCUMENT CAREFULLY BEFORE ACCESSING OR USING THE SITE. BY ACCESSING OR USING THE SITE, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS SET FORTH BELOW. IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO BE BOUND BY THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS...
    _◘X
    as i have stated before, importance of this and a few other paragraphs could have been highlighted using red or bold or some other font or combinations of the above and more...

    anybody else care to comment on some Legal Notices?

    also, i assume that management are more concerned with running the site and are not equiped to answer any quieries in my first post possibly because this is up to the JUPM law sector, hence this thread was dying.
    Hmm...theres something a little peculiar here. Oh i see what it is! the sentence is talking about itself! do you see that? what do you mean? sentences can\'t talk! No, but they REFER to things, and this one refers directly-unambigeously-unmistakably-to the very sentence which it is!

  6. #6
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    Phaza> Great point Seen it but never thought to read it.
    Me> have you read it now? spot anything else in it that is "interesting"?

    The Old Man> "Yes, they own everything you post or transmit to them."
    Me> to clarify once again - they own your custom avatar (providing it doesn't already infringe on any copyrights, and if it does and they use it as a logo for something and get sued, it all falls in your lap), they own that picture in your profile that you spent hours creating, ha! they own your profile, they own your username...antipoints...your existence inside this little universe onto itself...etc.

    The Old Man> ..."free" hosting services that have the same small-print.
    Me> as an example Web1000 offers free hosting with no advertising. in their Legal Stuff page they tip-toe and dance around the issue of who owns the "content" or "idea" behind the site that you give them to host. really it was quite an entertaining read, but the bottom line is that they own your site. if your site becomes popular for whatever reason they can start by ""Using some of your alotted webspace"" for storing ""Anything they want"". In addition, they claim they can render the page however they see fit <cough> insert advertisements </cough>.

    i just linked to a vbforum from a thread in here and was interested to find that JUPM also owns the vbforum site.
    Tedob1> bugnosis hasn't detected any web-bugs here yet
    Me> what about at http://www.vbforums.com/ ?
    it contained the same legal information. i couldn't help but comment on this eye-sore,
    f) Use the Site’s communication features in a manner that adversely affects the availability of its resources to other users (e.g., excessive shouting, use of all caps, or flooding continuous posting of repetitive text);
    so it appears that all are in agreement that use of caps should be reserved for shouting in the forum - to stress importance, annoyance...etc. - execessive shouting is forbidden as it hard/annoying to read the capital letters.

    so it should not be too hard to see that those who read forums are of this opinion and have a dislike for reading caps. so strong is this communal opinion that it is written in stone (ha!) in the Legal Notice.

    now to quote (perhaps excessively) from another sources' work, Kenneth J. Colby US DOD Artificial Intelligence researcher and psychiatrist.
    Personality Profiling And Simulation Systems, an advanced technology used in military war games, FBI profiling, political campaigning, and advertising:

    ·unenlightened human minds are combinations of infantile beliefs and emotional patterns
    ·these patterns can be simulated in profiling systems
    ·these profiling systems can be used to program and control people
    i must admit that the JUPM Legal Notice is not by any means the worst or hardest to follow, some of these docs are written ENTIRELY in caps. back to the JUPM agreement,
    PLEASE READ THIS DOCUMENT CAREFULLY BEFORE ACCESSING OR USING THE SITE. BY ACCESSING OR USING THE SITE, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS SET FORTH BELOW. IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO BE BOUND BY THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS...
    _◘X
    as i have stated before, importance of this and a few other paragraphs could have been highlighted using red or bold or some other font or combinations of the above and more...

    anybody else care to comment on some Legal Notices?

    also, i assume that management are more concerned with running the site and are not equiped to answer any quieries in my first post possibly because this is up to the JUPM law sector, hence this thread was dying.
    Hmm...theres something a little peculiar here. Oh i see what it is! the sentence is talking about itself! do you see that? what do you mean? sentences can\'t talk! No, but they REFER to things, and this one refers directly-unambigeously-unmistakably-to the very sentence which it is!

  7. #7
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    (V)/\><

    I don't know anything about the legal side of this, but if you don't mind, I'd like to state my opinion...
    Please note that I don't speak for JupiterMedia, so don't call me biased or anything.


    does this basically mean that JUPM claims to own every last character of data in the forum, just because JUPM owns the forum, regardless of who actually wrote it? thereby allowing JUPM to legally profit from ideas etc. contained within the forum? what about members journals, etc.?
    JUPM owns the hardware the forum is stored on and grants you the right to use their hardware. I guess it basically means JUMP owns every last character of data in the forum, yes. If that wouldn't be the cause, members could claim that they own part of JUMP's hardware since "their" data is stored on it...

    who decides if someones "right of privacy or publicity" is invaded? and how can conversation develop in the cosmos forum.
    It's not simple "the invasion of privacy or publicity" that's at order here, it's "the invasion of privacy or publicity by unlawful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous or otherwise objectionable..."

    By using this site, you grant JUMP permission to take measurements when you'd decide to unlawfully break someone's privacy/publicity. Same as in real life, I guess.

    i like this one for two main reasons. firstly, it prohibits anyone from impersonating people, like santa claus or michael jackson.
    Impersonating Michael Jackson is forbidden in real life as well (not talking about Santa Clause here ). Depends what American law means by 'impersonating', of course. In Belgium, you are allowed to 'impersonate' Michael Jackson (hence: imitate him, for example), but you are NOT allowed to present yourself as being 'Michael Jackson, the famous singer'...
    You are not allowed to present yourself as a JUPM forum admin, moderator,... that part is pretty obvious, I'd say. I don't think it's legal in real life to present yourself as a police officer either, for example... I assume you wouldn't want anyone to banter your name (is the user-name (V)/\x taken already?) and pass himself off as being you...

    and secondly, you use an before a word beginning with a vowel, a e i o u, and although my english ain't perfect, this "an" looks great in this professional document. of course you don't say "an unicorn" so perhaps a similar oddity exist for the letter J.
    It's a rule without oddities... You use 'an' before a word beginning with a vowel that is not 'blown' (don't know the English term... if you hear a 'h', it's blown)... In this case, it's an error of course, but explainable: "an official"... I assume 'JUPM' was added later.

    do i have the right to reproduce the JUPM Web Site User Agreement as i have done in quotation tags?
    Since you did it on a site owned by JUPM, I assume so. At least you cited the source...

    i am on the verge of bed, so forgive me if i am failing to see where it says exactly what personal information "may" be "tracked". and is this just any ole advertisier, or one affiliated with JUPM?
    This should answer that question...

    As for the language being used in the Legal Notices, Licensing, Reprints, & Permissions, Privacy Policy,... They are legal notices, written in legal language. I don't want to see something like 'We promise (we really do, we SWEAR on our children!) we won't give your email-addy (that blablabla@blabla.blabla-thing, you know) to evil people. We really do!' in a legal notice, and neither does a judge when he'd have to judge in a case concerning your violation of privacy.

    As for your last quote in your last post: they're making up for you not using caps where caps should be used with those three all-caps sentences... (not funny, I know ).

    Anyways: if those 'rules' wouldn't be so 'uptight', I'm sure they would be abused by now. I'm pretty sure JUPM is not after stealing your custom avatar, but just after covering itself in.

    Take this for what it's worth.

  8. #8
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    (V)/\><

    I don't know anything about the legal side of this, but if you don't mind, I'd like to state my opinion...
    Please note that I don't speak for JupiterMedia, so don't call me biased or anything.


    does this basically mean that JUPM claims to own every last character of data in the forum, just because JUPM owns the forum, regardless of who actually wrote it? thereby allowing JUPM to legally profit from ideas etc. contained within the forum? what about members journals, etc.?
    JUPM owns the hardware the forum is stored on and grants you the right to use their hardware. I guess it basically means JUMP owns every last character of data in the forum, yes. If that wouldn't be the cause, members could claim that they own part of JUMP's hardware since "their" data is stored on it...

    who decides if someones "right of privacy or publicity" is invaded? and how can conversation develop in the cosmos forum.
    It's not simple "the invasion of privacy or publicity" that's at order here, it's "the invasion of privacy or publicity by unlawful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous or otherwise objectionable..."

    By using this site, you grant JUMP permission to take measurements when you'd decide to unlawfully break someone's privacy/publicity. Same as in real life, I guess.

    i like this one for two main reasons. firstly, it prohibits anyone from impersonating people, like santa claus or michael jackson.
    Impersonating Michael Jackson is forbidden in real life as well (not talking about Santa Clause here ). Depends what American law means by 'impersonating', of course. In Belgium, you are allowed to 'impersonate' Michael Jackson (hence: imitate him, for example), but you are NOT allowed to present yourself as being 'Michael Jackson, the famous singer'...
    You are not allowed to present yourself as a JUPM forum admin, moderator,... that part is pretty obvious, I'd say. I don't think it's legal in real life to present yourself as a police officer either, for example... I assume you wouldn't want anyone to banter your name (is the user-name (V)/\x taken already?) and pass himself off as being you...

    and secondly, you use an before a word beginning with a vowel, a e i o u, and although my english ain't perfect, this "an" looks great in this professional document. of course you don't say "an unicorn" so perhaps a similar oddity exist for the letter J.
    It's a rule without oddities... You use 'an' before a word beginning with a vowel that is not 'blown' (don't know the English term... if you hear a 'h', it's blown)... In this case, it's an error of course, but explainable: "an official"... I assume 'JUPM' was added later.

    do i have the right to reproduce the JUPM Web Site User Agreement as i have done in quotation tags?
    Since you did it on a site owned by JUPM, I assume so. At least you cited the source...

    i am on the verge of bed, so forgive me if i am failing to see where it says exactly what personal information "may" be "tracked". and is this just any ole advertisier, or one affiliated with JUPM?
    This should answer that question...

    As for the language being used in the Legal Notices, Licensing, Reprints, & Permissions, Privacy Policy,... They are legal notices, written in legal language. I don't want to see something like 'We promise (we really do, we SWEAR on our children!) we won't give your email-addy (that blablabla@blabla.blabla-thing, you know) to evil people. We really do!' in a legal notice, and neither does a judge when he'd have to judge in a case concerning your violation of privacy.

    As for your last quote in your last post: they're making up for you not using caps where caps should be used with those three all-caps sentences... (not funny, I know ).

    Anyways: if those 'rules' wouldn't be so 'uptight', I'm sure they would be abused by now. I'm pretty sure JUPM is not after stealing your custom avatar, but just after covering itself in.

    Take this for what it's worth.

  9. #9
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    Negative,
    cheers for the reply.
    Take this for what it's worth.
    it's worth the electrons used to encode it.

    Anyways: if those 'rules' wouldn't be so 'uptight', I'm sure they would be abused by now. I'm pretty sure JUPM is not after stealing your custom avatar, but just after covering itself in.
    the "rules", indeed. but how can you abuse or otherwise break the "rules" if you have never read them and don't know what they are. i'm still assuming that most of the members here haven't read the legal info, yet their use of the site is taken as confirmation that they have read, and agree to, the "rules". of course they aren't stealing peoples custom avatars, they already legally own them. they do not necessarily have to be in that business.
    As for your last quote in your last post: they're making up for you not using caps where caps should be used with those three all-caps sentences... (not funny, I know ).
    my little pinkie-shift key combination is reserved for running, well mostly anyway, instead of adhering to yet another of the english languages formal oddities (oddity - odditys - oddityes - odditis -- y? -- my sympathies for anyone learning the english language for the first time as a second language.) although almost all other languages have similar syntax for sentence structure with regard to captial letters.
    It's a rule without oddities... You use 'an' before a word beginning with a vowel that is not 'blown' (don't know the English term... if you hear a 'h', it's blown)... In this case, it's an error of course, but explainable: "an official"... I assume 'JUPM' was added later.
    i do not understand this "blown". and i have noticed the "an JUPM" elsewhere in the document since first posting so i think now that it is not an error. perhaps something to do with the fact that "JUPM" is a reference to a legal entity. or that it is abreviated...or something like that.
    on impersonating people, of course it is unacceptable behaviour for members of a community, one would only want to do such things if one was up to no good. its more that it has to be stated and all members bound to such an agreement that i find strange. how large can a community get? i thought that communities were meant to be small, there are over one hundread thousand registered members here, and yes a smaller amount post in the forums. communities thrive on mutual agreement and good will, not "rules".
    JUPM owns the hardware the forum is stored on and grants you the right to use their hardware.
    from this perspective, then OF COURSE they own everything contained within their electronics. to think that someone would claim to own some of the hardware because their data was contained within is insane. you can't claim to own something unless you paid for it, or CREATED it. how can you freely give something to the ao community if by posting it it becomes the property of JUPM? i am under the impression that if you can not patent something if you publicly announce it ( this is a public forum). it is seen as you giving something to the world for free. but how can you do that here? with, say for example, a program, like ones that ntsa wrote? does JUPM own those, or does ntsa?

    like i said:
    of course all documents like this are laid out to cover the assets of those concerned in exceptional circumstances.
    or in other words, they will not be called upon unless something goes wrong.
    who knows how what will be interpritated when these exceptional circumstances arise.

    Take this for what it's worth.
    if it has any monitary value, who profits from it ?
    Hmm...theres something a little peculiar here. Oh i see what it is! the sentence is talking about itself! do you see that? what do you mean? sentences can\'t talk! No, but they REFER to things, and this one refers directly-unambigeously-unmistakably-to the very sentence which it is!

  10. #10
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    Negative,
    cheers for the reply.
    Take this for what it's worth.
    it's worth the electrons used to encode it.

    Anyways: if those 'rules' wouldn't be so 'uptight', I'm sure they would be abused by now. I'm pretty sure JUPM is not after stealing your custom avatar, but just after covering itself in.
    the "rules", indeed. but how can you abuse or otherwise break the "rules" if you have never read them and don't know what they are. i'm still assuming that most of the members here haven't read the legal info, yet their use of the site is taken as confirmation that they have read, and agree to, the "rules". of course they aren't stealing peoples custom avatars, they already legally own them. they do not necessarily have to be in that business.
    As for your last quote in your last post: they're making up for you not using caps where caps should be used with those three all-caps sentences... (not funny, I know ).
    my little pinkie-shift key combination is reserved for running, well mostly anyway, instead of adhering to yet another of the english languages formal oddities (oddity - odditys - oddityes - odditis -- y? -- my sympathies for anyone learning the english language for the first time as a second language.) although almost all other languages have similar syntax for sentence structure with regard to captial letters.
    It's a rule without oddities... You use 'an' before a word beginning with a vowel that is not 'blown' (don't know the English term... if you hear a 'h', it's blown)... In this case, it's an error of course, but explainable: "an official"... I assume 'JUPM' was added later.
    i do not understand this "blown". and i have noticed the "an JUPM" elsewhere in the document since first posting so i think now that it is not an error. perhaps something to do with the fact that "JUPM" is a reference to a legal entity. or that it is abreviated...or something like that.
    on impersonating people, of course it is unacceptable behaviour for members of a community, one would only want to do such things if one was up to no good. its more that it has to be stated and all members bound to such an agreement that i find strange. how large can a community get? i thought that communities were meant to be small, there are over one hundread thousand registered members here, and yes a smaller amount post in the forums. communities thrive on mutual agreement and good will, not "rules".
    JUPM owns the hardware the forum is stored on and grants you the right to use their hardware.
    from this perspective, then OF COURSE they own everything contained within their electronics. to think that someone would claim to own some of the hardware because their data was contained within is insane. you can't claim to own something unless you paid for it, or CREATED it. how can you freely give something to the ao community if by posting it it becomes the property of JUPM? i am under the impression that if you can not patent something if you publicly announce it ( this is a public forum). it is seen as you giving something to the world for free. but how can you do that here? with, say for example, a program, like ones that ntsa wrote? does JUPM own those, or does ntsa?

    like i said:
    of course all documents like this are laid out to cover the assets of those concerned in exceptional circumstances.
    or in other words, they will not be called upon unless something goes wrong.
    who knows how what will be interpritated when these exceptional circumstances arise.

    Take this for what it's worth.
    if it has any monitary value, who profits from it ?
    Hmm...theres something a little peculiar here. Oh i see what it is! the sentence is talking about itself! do you see that? what do you mean? sentences can\'t talk! No, but they REFER to things, and this one refers directly-unambigeously-unmistakably-to the very sentence which it is!

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