a reminder for france

[rollin5150]

here is a lovely reminder for the french.....




the french

[Negative]

Rollin5150...

I understand that your idea about this situation is as follows: the US liberated France 50 years ago, so now France should support the US. I find this logic flawed. Since you only seem able to express your thoughts via silly emoticons, I'll draw you an easy-to-understand analogy.

Situation: a 'weak' 12-year old boy gets beaten up by a strong 18-year old kid. An adult stands up for the 12-year old boy and beats the crap out of the 18-year old kid. A little later, the adult decides to go in the drugs-business and wants to recruit the 12-year old as a runner. Following your "logic", the 12-year old is morally obligated to help the adult.

Clear enough?

If I were that 12-year old boy, I'd feel some kind of moral obligation to that adult. That doesn't mean that every time that adult screams 'Jump', I'll ask 'How high?'.

The French still feel gratefull for the US having liberated them, don't be mistaken (maybe you should go visit the Normandy graveyard one day and see for yourself how clean and well-maintained it is. It's French people who make sure it is.)

Same goes for us Belgians. We still are gratefull for the US having liberated us. That doesn't mean we have to agree with everything the US does now or will do later.
And although I realize human lifes can't be repaid, both Belgium and France have been forced to pay A LOT of money for their liberation.

I'm not insulted: what you suggest by using that particular emoticon in your post is not insulting... I made a mental note that you just don't know any better.

Thanks for having liberated us.

[bugsthecat]

just remember back in the day ,pre usa ,"americans" were terrorists/rebels and king Louis of France saved your asses from the Brits through arms and blockade(and lost his head indirectly for it) , that is how you became America

[KorpDeath]

Originally posted here by bugsthecat
just remember back in the day ,pre usa ,"americans" were terrorists/rebels and king Louis of France saved your asses from the Brits through arms and blockade(and lost his head indirectly for it) , that is how you became America

That's a hilarious comment coming from a Canadian, bugsthecat. You wouldn't happen to be of French ancestory.....? It's a reminder, oh grateful one.

And Neg, that's the most ludicrous thing I have ever seen you write. I'm not trying to be insulting here. I am absolutely struck by how ignorant that entire post is. I usually have to give you credit for your debating skills, you've honed them to precise instrument.....Most of the time we don't see eye to eye, however I've always applauded your ability, but this is just a pitiful, petty attack. On a very powerful picture, I might add.

[Tedob1]

oh come on. most of the people that were liberated and most of the liberators have pasted on. we cant expect them and all future generations to bend over backwards for us

anyway we have our oun reasons to dislike them. like now they think they deserve the contracts to rebuild iraq. like they have something to say about it. those contracts should go to the nations that think enough about our way of life to put their asses and resources on the line. like oz the uk poland the us and all the rest.

[HTRegz]

I think if you're goin to bring up WWII that the big thing to remember is that it took the US 2 years to support the rest of the World... for 2 years they sat out and watched what was happening. It was until they were attacked that they decided to get involved. So how can you blame other countries for standing by and watching now. it's exactly what the United States did in the past.

[Negative]

KorpDeath: the picture indeed is very strong. The logic of the comment is flawed as I've tried to explain. You are free to give me your argumentation of why my logic is flawed (arguments, not just calling my attacking of an ignorant post pitiful). Why don't you try to convince me that France owns the US, whatever the US wants the French to do?

[rollin5150]

I think if you're goin to bring up WWII that the big thing to remember is that it took the US 2 years to support the rest of the World... for 2 years they sat out and watched what was happening. It was until they were attacked that they decided to get involved. So how can you blame other countries for standing by and watching now. it's exactly what the United States did in the past.

correct me if im wrong but,

i dont think that the US paid other countries off to be against the war (WWII) like france did @ the UN....

& didn't the US send a butt load of aid prior to joining WWII?

the french have sent 44 people in a decontamination unit to decontaminate the non-exsistent chem & bio weapons that iraqis dont have?

[debwalin]

This is off topic a bit, but not completely. I've heard it said over and over that France is receiving "sweetheart" deals on oil prices from Iraq, and therefore are hesitant to involve themselves in the current debacle. I don't want opinion on this...I would like to see if anyone has cold hard facts that I can read? If this is true, then I do have a little bit of contempt for the French, however at this point I have to commend President Chirac for not being a lapdog to an ignorant bunch of hypocrites.

Rollin...try to grow up a little bit.

Deb

[Negative]

Debwalin: There have been behind-the-screens negotiations going on about the post-Saddam Iraq for months. Of course, the French are keen to preserve the French oil-companies' interests. The US have publicly warned the French (and others) already that they who are opposed to the war, won't be involved in the post-Saddam deals.

Right now, the US don't have oil-contracts with Iraq. TotalFinaElf (French), Loukoil (Russian) and Chinese Petroleum do. TotalFinaElf for example has a contract for the exploitation of two huge oil-wells (worth 30 billion barrels - about as much as the US's current stock) once the embargo has been lifted.

TotalFinaElf aren't sweeties.. BBC - French Oil Trap Opens

So what we have here basically is:

- The French - already have the contracts with Iraq - opposed to war.
- The Americans - no contracts yet - at war.

To understand what's going on now, I think it's important to know Iraq's history. It'll show you how important oil has always been (and still is).

The situation in 1920:

France owns Syria and Libanon, the British own Palestine and Mesopotamia (Iraq).

In 1920, the Iraqi's revolt. The British RAF bombs the regio using poison gas. Winston Churchill, minister of the Colonies, defends himself: "I'm all for using poison gas against uncivilized tribes."

1922: The British separate Kuwait (under British protectorate) from the Iraqi province of Basra, thus preventing the Iraqi's from access to the Persian Gulf. This will also allow the British to act faster should Western control over the Iraq Petroleum Company (a consortium of British, French and American oil companies) be threatened. This is the beginning of years of Iraqi attempts to reconquer this territory.

1936: Huge oil-reserves are discovered in Kuwait. Concession goes to Gulf Oil.

1939: The Iraqi minister of Foreing Affairs reminds the British ambassador of the fact that the Ottomanian-British agreement of 1913 recognizes Kuwait as a district under control of Basra.

1951: the Iranian government - lead by Mossadegh - nationalizes the Anglo-Iranian Oilcompany (now known as British Petroleum). The Western countries immediately lay down sanctions against Iran. Kuwaiti oil is used to replace the Iranian oil.

1953: When Iran is severely weakened by the sanctions, the CIA helps to overthrow the Mossadegh-government. The US put sjah Reza Pahlevi in charge, who immediately places 40% of Iranian oil under control of American oil companies. William Colby, head of the CIA: "this is the proudest achievement of the CIA". General Norman Schwarzkopf senior helps founding the SAVAK, Iran's merciless secret police. Kermit Roosevelt, the CIA-agent responsible for the coup, becomes vice-president for Gulf Oil.

1958: A nationalistic revolution founds an Iraqi republic, putting Abdek Karim Kassem in power. Kassem immediately starts to nationalize the Iraqi oil. CIA plans a complot against Kassem. In the mean time, American generals make up a plan to invade North-Iraq (code-name: Cannonbone. Objective: the occupation of Kurdish oilfields).

1960: With Kassem's support, the OPEC is founded to break the power of western oil multinationals. Kassem: "We do not fight the oil companies because of the 7 million dinars a year. We fight for the industrialization of our republic. We fight for our independence from the sale of oil".
Again, Kuwaits oil-production is raised to keep oil-prices low and break OPEC's power.

1961: the British decide to give Kuwait its independence. Iraq doesn't recognize this one-sided decision. The British send troops to Kuwait to protect it.

1963: A coup, supported by the CIA, overthrows Kassem (a CIA agent for the Senates Commission: "The target suffered a terminal illness before a firing squad in Baghdad.").

Kuwait uses the confusion to extend its borders (untill than in Muttla) with 70 kilometers more to the north.

1968: Baath-party at power in Iraq.

1972: Iraq announces the nationalization of its oil-industry. Nixon, Kissinger and the Iranian sjah decide to arm the Iraqi Kurds and make them revolt against Baghdad to weaken Iraq. The Iranian sjah provides the Kurds with US-weapons. Kissinger convinces Barzani (the leader of the Kurds) to reject a soviet-proposal to negotiate between the Kurds and Baghdad. The CIA provides Barzani, through the Israeli's, with weapons worth 16 million USD.
At this point, Iraq - not the US - is placed on the list of countries who support terrorism.

1975: Under pressure of the US, Saddam Hoessein (Iraqi vice-president at that time) and Iran's sjah come to an agreement. All US-help to Barzani and the Kurds is immediately stopped. The Pike Report (published by the House Select Committee on Intelligence) describes this as "a cynical enterprise, even in the context of clandestine operations". Kurdish leaders flee the region. Kissinger: "Covert operations should not be confused with missionary work."

1979: A revolution overthrows the US-supported Iranian sjah. Khomeini calls for a jihad against Saddam Hoessein.

1980: The Carter Doctrine: the US will military interfere in the Persian Gulf to protect American access to oil. Iraq invades Iran, publicly supported by the US (Brzezinski), after so-called border-violations by Iran. What follows is an 8-year war, where the US support both parties. Kissinger: "I hope they kill each other. Too bad they can't both loose."

1982: During this war, Iraq's name is taken off the list of countries supporting terrorism. The Turkish -after a visit by US general David Jones - send troops to north Iraq to fight Kurdish rebels, so that Iraq can fully concentrate on fighting Iran.

1984: Full diplomatic connections between the US and Iraq. Reagan allows the CIA to trade top-secret with the Iraqi's. This exchange also takes place between the US and Iran. The US sell weapons to Iran. Kuwait uses the confusion surrounding the Iran/Iraq-war again to extend its border to the north, taking about 1400 km² from the Iraqi Rumaila-oilfields. Helped by the new American supplied-slant-drilling-technology, Kuwait manages to drill for oil in that part of the Rumaila-oilfield that is without a doubt Iraqi.

1985: Oliver North tells Iranian negotiaters that the US will help Iran in overthrowing Saddam's regime.

1986: the Iran-Contra-scandal. Co-operation between the US and Iraq never stops. When it turns out like Iraq is about to lose the war, the US start supporting them even more.

1987: General Norman Schwarzkopf junior is appointed head of CentCom (American Central Command). In this same year, the US support Iraq against Iran by escorting Kuwaiti and Iraqi oiltankers, and bombing Iranian oilplatforms.

1988: American, European, Kuwaiti, Saudi-Arabian and Jordanian help give Iraq the advantage in the war with Iran. A cease-fire is reached on August 8th.

1989-1990: an American veto blocks UN-resolutions to condemn the American invasion of Panama, to condemn Israeli behaviour in the occupied regions, and to condemn the gain of territory by force.

Februari 1990: General Schwarzkopf witnesses before the Senate the importance of raising military presence in the Gulf. He warns for Iraqi military threat. "The oil of the Middle-East is vital to the West".

April 12 1990: Saddam offers to destroy his complete arsenal of chemical and other non-conventional weapons if the Israeli's agree to destroy their chemical and nuclear weapons. The US are against.

May 1990: Saddam accuses Kuwait of having stolen oil worth 2.4 billion USD from the Rumaila-fields.

July 1990: Saddams troops gather at the Kuwaiti border. The US silently agree.

July 25 1990: US-ambassador Glaspie guarantees Saddam they won't interfere with inter-Arabic differences.

August 2 1990: Iraq invades Kuwait. The UN lay an embargo on Iraq. The US send in 540.000 troops.

The rest is umm... history.