Point and click programming?

[er0k]

Originally posted here by nebulus200
VB was 'great' for its simplicity. Rather than having to mess around with code to capture the events, draw boxes, draw frames, etc, it is all added in by literally dropping it onto the screen and then detailing what events you want to capture and what to do when they occur. Since everything is so object oriented, you can in many cases add functionality to your program with a mouse drop. While I get what you are saying about cross-platform, that is not what I was commenting on nor was I saying that VB is the end-all-be-all, I was only commenting on the ease of use and its relative closeness to a CASE tool versus say something like C++.



/nebulus

<little kids voice> sniff but but but i dd don ddont liike it </little kids voice>

seriously though, its just like say.. maya, yet more widely used, and maya *is* cross-platform.. my question is, why does microsoft have to invent stupid **** ? :P

[Juridian]

erm, maya? Too bad hardly anyone uses it. VB is great, especially if you understand what you are doing and how com works. I've built e-commerce systems that handle massive loads of traffic and pump through millions of dollars with it....and the real great part is that it doesn't take much time to build.

You do still have to know good coding practices with these new systems. They are simply taking out alot of the menial work that takes far too much time and can be automated. People can only 'point and click' program the simplest of apps and even then they will not work in a flawless manner without tweaking by someone who has half a clue. This is not 'bad news' for programmers unless you have no skills and cannot prove your own worth.

Like I said, I use these tools every day and like them alot. They take out alot of the brainless work that needed to be done to build applications and allow me to focus more on the important stuff (for the most part).

[Amanda]

Yeah but theres a difference between drawing really beautiful forms in VB then codeing everything else as oppossed to just point & click apps that ask what you want then it builds things for you. Besides the increase of script-kiddies... what if companies start useing stuff like this while the more experianced coders are force to do grunt work like tech support and debuging other peaple's apps. Computers are already easy to use and are sometimes in the hands of morons... I don't see giveing these peaple the ability to make programs to be much of a good thing.

[Juridian]

How many times must I say this....

hellooooo more experienced coder here who uses these tools to save him time while still taking the effort to produce quality code!!

Only people who would lose jobs to these tools are the ones who do not have skills.

[slarty]

There have been CASE tools around for *sooo* long now. Back in the 1980s, they were suggesting that programmers would be obsolete.

Yet we aren't.

There are a lot of tools provide graphical tools. The Rational Rose bunch take their pretty little UML diagrams, Java classes spit out the end. The VB bunch drag all their stuff on to their forms.

However, none of them actually reduces the amount of "real" programming required. When all the UML diagrams are drawn, all the VB forms dragged and dropped, code still needs to be written. And it is this, by which programmers are distinguished.

These tools just take a small amount of labour out of doing the tedious (i.e. easy) bits of programming, they don't make the actual work any easier.

Slarty

[Zonewalker]

I'd agree with Slarty on this one

These tools just take a small amount of labour out of doing the tedious (i.e. easy) bits of programming, they don't make the actual work any easier.

Both methods i.e. coding by hand or drag and drop, have advantages as well as disavantages and the productive (and therefore highly employable programmer) will take the approach of being able to use both methods to quickly produce a decent programme (like Juridan says).
It only seems scary if you're not willing to adapt because lets face it in the real world we all know that an employer wants the programme you're lovingly crafting by hand yesterday.

Just my tuppence worth anyway

Z

[Noia]

thats flow diagram programming....I'v done some of that for Firmware Basic....it's ****...the code comes out all bloated and such...sure, you can do it without virtualy any knowledge...but you'r very limited in what you do, no where near as good as normal programming....oh well...
Ma 2 cents

- Noia

[slarty]

The other thing to realise is, that not all CASE techniques make programming faster.

The bits of software development which these tools automate are usually the really easy ones, hence don't take very long to do by hand anyway. If the method also makes writing the other pieces of code more difficult (which it usually does), then it can be counter-productive.

I really prefer a literate editor to enable me to hand-code things slightly faster, than some whizzy GUI to do a load of stuff for me, because:

- I don't trust the Whizzy GUI to get the code right in the first place
- I won't be able to maintain the auto-generated code (well, not as easily)
- I don't like things happening behind my back (it causes bugs)

[sectac]

i dont think i could ever trust my business and all my money into a program created appon a template. Without much knowledge, the program could make errors that would not cause a segfault at a certain point, but later contain many overflows or different problems.

[Zonewalker]

mmm... slarty... yeah I agree ... I probably should have expanded upon my initial post cos you're thinking along the same lines I am. The point I was trying to make is similar to the thread not long ago about 'who writes HTML by hand' these days. There was something of a discussion of the merits of using dreamweaver over notepad... dreamweaver enabling the designer to concentrate on the artistic tone of the website easily without having to know HTML in depth... but similarly it's useful if you do know HTML cos you can tweak the rubbish that a WYSIWYG usually generates. A similar point exists with this topic.... I'm not necessarily saying that these tools are a wholly good thing mind you, just that it may be as well to be reasonably familiar with both methods to keep oneself in gainful employment. But I take your point about not trusting the code - and I wouldn't disagree with you either.

Z