Constitution (yet another US rant)

[neel]

Heya all,

<Antionline specific notice>
Now with non-anonymous Antipoints I expect assignments to be valid. I know there will be assignments because they always are and how many people are hypocrit or not and maybe you don't care about not being anonymous, because you got so ****ing much antipoints you don't "fear" revenge. I can tell you I won't take revenge and you don't have to prove your power if you run out of words. However, because I'm just ignorant I ask again. Please don't neg people just because you don't like their opinion.
</Antionline specific notice>

Like recently in the news again, an Al Quaida man threaths the US again:
http://www.omroep.nl/nos/nieuws/inde...siers.html</a>
It's a dutch link and I'll try to explain what it says.
The first part is about some guy saying on some tv channel the US is goin to be attacked again. He says the real fight hasn't even begun yet. The second part is more interesting for my story. Washington is planning to bring about 600 prisoners for a miltary tribunal or a military court (if that's the correct translation). The prisonners are imprisonned at a US armybase and the people are from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Ausrtalia, Great-Britain. Six of them (of wich 2 of GB) will be judged very soon. Therefor they made a special tribunal wich may give them the death penalty. Washington says these people don't have the rights of prisoners of war from the conventions of Genève because they are enemy fighters.

Socond link:
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...ember_11th.asp

Since September 11th, the freedoms that are at the core of our democratic society are, for many, no longer a guarantee. Hundreds of innocent Arab and Muslim individuals were rounded up and held for months with no idea why. Prisoners were shipped to Guantanamo Bay, where they have not been afforded the protections widely thought to be applicable under the Geneva Convention. New laws on domestic terrorism and relaxed restrictions on government surveillance of activists threaten long-established traditions of political expression. And perhaps most chilling, these detentions - like many actions by the Bush Administration - have been shrouded in a deep secrecy that is inimical to democratic accountabilty.

On all counts, CCR is fighting for the Bill of Rights. Out of 16 lawsuits related to civil liberties after September 11th, identified by the Legal Times in 2002, CCR is a party to nine. We will continue to work tirelessly in defense of individual liberties and the rule of law in the United States.

If yer interested also have a look at the links at the bottom
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...vv&Content=239
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...8m&Content=210
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...0kV&Content=88
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...es2&Content=89
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...CpS&Content=90
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...6Vx&Content=93
etc.

To not make this post to long there are many more examples of the US ignoring the constintutional right and the like. I know the US isn't alone on that (read disclaimer). That little bit of humanity so many people died for. The thing people cry for in warmovies. The dirty tricks you see in movies about the Vietnam war (from both sites) the mean people from whatever action movie.

The US is allowed to totally burn down two countries so far. One far potentionally hosting a Al Quaida leader. So far actually they didn't find him. Afghanistan lies in ruins. I didn't see prove Osama Bin Laden actually had to do with 11 september. They claimed it ? Then where's the prove Osama is in Afghanistan ? And why should we litterally *punish* the afghanistan people for his deeds. Bush didn't even try to hide he was killing as many people as had died in the Two Towers. The world did nothing I know, they were stunned by the agression from both sites. I'm taking about the US (disclaimer). Of course people will come with hidden and confident files that proves these things. Someone also said he had prove of Iraq having forbidden weapons and they knew it so sure. They knew the locations of training camps, where the missiles where hidden etc etc. Now... WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY THEN. Iraq lies in ruins. Nice side effect: Sadaam was an evil dictator.

These are just very few examples, but they do count I think. I know the common objections I always get when I say stuff like this, so please read my disclaimer:

<Disclaimer>
As you might have already noticed I'm going to bitch about the US government again. I'm actually posting it because I want to know other views because I *might* actually be wrong. Please don't come with arguments like "everyones doing it" and "why attack the US AGAIN". I don't only "attack" the US altough I do in this post. I also don't have anything against Americans personally. The reason why I "attack" again is because the issue never get's solved really. There's always some childish part in the chain that somehow ends the discussion in a way at least I am not fine with. I'm typing it here so I don't have to say this in every next post I make.
</Disclaimer>

I also know I always forget alot of stuff. I'll try to restore them in following posts if I remember them again. This post is just to long to be bugless.

Have fun and keep the discussion fair.

p.s.

A friend of mine told me this when I said I was going to "attack" the US "again":

<*> But understand we are the best in the world, and we can do whatever the **** we want
<*> Like yank leaders
<*> sell weapons and say "HEY, YOU ARE USING OUR WEAPONS"

so please don't send your FBI at me
</sarcasm>

It's an American who said this btw.

[allenb1963]

Neel, I'll try to keep this short....

Terrorism is a WORLD problem, not a US only problem.

These people have declared WAR on the US...they don't follow any rules, they just want to kill Americans and anyone else who happens to get in their way. Since they follow NO RULES why should we be expected to follow the Geneva conventions or EXTEND constitutional rights to people who are not even citizens of the US? These people are murdering bastards, plain and simple. I won't form an opinion on them deserving the death penalty though...I think that is something that should be based on the severity of the crime.

Religion is OK, but this type of fanaticism has no place in society.

As for your friend, all I can say is that his attitudes are those of a real peckerhead and do not reflect the attitudes of all US citizens.

I daresay that everyone would have a different opinion if it had been THEIR country that was hit on 9/11, but thats just me and I could well be wrong....it wouldn't be the first time and damn sure wouldn't be the last.

[neel]

Allenb1963, I know terrorist are a world problem and I don't try to back them up. I was showing how the US treats those people even if they're already caught and not able to cause deads. I also was showing how the US treat other *nations* where they are suspected of having terrorists in their country. After having ruined the country the US and friends couldn't come up with the prove they had when they started, so there's a simple explanation: they didn't have prove ever. My post wasn't really about fighting the terrorists, but the way the US is doing it. They fight terrorist, but they kill nations wich doesn't have anything in common except the colour of the skin. It comes close to racism to say the muslims are bad in general while they in the past showed to be one of the more tollerant religions. It shouldn't be about the religion. It should be about the humans. Humans have rights whatever they did. Bush is responsible for killing more people then any of those prisoners and even he has those rights.

I'm 100% sure if 9/11 was in the netherlands I'd think the same. I'd want the bastards to pay, but I would also think we should then pick the right bastards. Killing nations and still fail to get the leader is plain stupid. It's even more stupid if there's no prove either.

My view.

[Zonewalker]

allenb.... I agree with you that terrorism is a world problem but in answer to your question

Since they follow NO RULES why should we be expected to follow the Geneva conventions or EXTEND constitutional rights to people who are not even citizens of the US?

quite simply because we are supposed to be rational decent human beings. We (as in we I mean those countries that are supposed to adhere to the geneva convention) made those rules and just because the 'enemy' doesn't follow the same rules as us does not give us the right to disregard our own rules. If we do disregard our own rules of behaviour e.g. the geneva convention, how does that make us any better than a terrorist??

By not sticking to these self imposed rules, all it does is degrade us as 'noble' human beings with a sense of honour and justice. Yes you're right it does stick in the throat when you come up against those who do not follow the same rules - but we're supposed to be better than them - so why don't we act like it?

Now this is not the same as saying that those terrorists should get off scot free - they shouldn't ... but neither should they be treated as something less than human beings - to treat them in this way is the basis of what the UK, US and Europe tried fighting against 50 years ago. Despite the fact they are murdering bastards they are still humans and should be given appropriate rights. Bush himself said that the US and to an extent the UK is persuing a war on terrorism. Ok if thats the case then the terrorists at Guantanamo bay are enemy forces captured during a war i.e. they are POW's and should be treated accordingly.

Z

[neel]

Sorry to make you mad, but I already told you what I thought if it was my country. I read alot about military battles etc because they intrigue me. This isn't like Napoleon though. It doesn't have anything to do with "battles", not even with tactics and barely strategy. Doing nothing was an option, but the US is in a to big mess now. I played warcraft and ago of empires alot. How does tha quaify me to attack a country kill millions and still fail without prove, without notice of human rights. In a battle there are the rules of war. When you make prisoners we agreed on another ruleset. It's not about the "fight" it's about the treatment of people.

The mistakes the US made in, for example, Vietnam aren't the issue, it's the reason of that war. *If* you go to war do it the right way, because you want to win. Besides the motives being wrong (imo), the US isn't addapting to the terrorist either, they're just acting like terrorists themselves by mass exterminating people with the same religion or colour of skin. So far the addapting...

To turn your own perspective change to yourself. What if YOUR country was being ruined because one American decided to fly an airplane into a rather large building in a country that always opressed yours. What if you entire family got killed by a tribunal of war solely because they lived to close to a *possible* terrorist camp and what if they didn't get a fair trial either?

You can be mad, I'm mad to.

[TidaLphasE23]

Neel, It surly is a sad state of affairs in which the world is currently in. There could never be
any justification for murdering so many innocent people on 9/11, it's a sign of the cruelty that
these exstremist's call jihad. It's going to be a war that will have no end, only brutal and
continued suffering on both sides. I am trying not to take sides in figureing out the reason's
behind this current dilema that has gripped the globe, but it is not as clean cut as some would
have you believe. The US has been doing deals to suit itself for many year's, supporting many
varied individuals and groups one minute and then the next taking them out using some not
so humane method's. Some of these operations would have been legitimate security concern
while other's just plain greed of the $. I repeat i am not taking sides on this i am just being a
very concerned person trying to work it all out. I compaire it to going around town telling
everyone what they can do, when they can, how they can, and just slapping who-ever in
the face because they don't agree. Do this in real life in your home town and see how long
it will be before this kind of action come's back around to bite you on the ass, not long i
suspect.

I watched a very interesting documentary in the late 90's in which binladen was interviewed
regarding the U/S. It was a very predictive and obvious warning that there was going to be
reprisal attack's on the U/S in retaliation to it's polocies. At the end of this program i was
100% convinced that there was no doubt at all of these extremists carrying out their threats.

O.K this is going to upset some people but hey, let's face it the history of double dealing and
standover tactics is well known by all who have their eye's open to the obvious, only a super-
power could get away with it all. I will also say that i am gratefull for these action's as it has,
and still provides the freedom's that i enjoy, and have since i was born. I would definately
prefer to accept the "running's of the business" as it is than live under a dictatorship with
limited right's and restricted ambition's.

We can only hope that there will be a solution to this madness before many many more
innocent people perish at the hand's of madmen. Unfortunately i don't see that there could
be one forthcoming without a massive change of thinking from all the player's. Our kid's are
our future, yet we teach hate and war to often. The media has also got to totally revise it's
method of social engeneering to enable a more positive outlook and attitude for all.

anyway's that's my 2 bob, if you feel the need to correct me, or help me better understand
this situation feel free to reply not to insult.

[HTRegz]

That's it.. I wasn't going to post this.. I had written it up and just put it on my website beacuse I know regardless of the rules in here, someone will neg me for it.... Anyways.. I've gotta post this now.

Hey Hey,

I've stayed clear of cosmos for a very long time, as most of you have probably noticed. This is because like neel mentioned, this is supposed to be an AP-free zone, yet people don't seem to realize that. They still attack people for their opinions. Anyways here we go.

Like allenb said terrorism is a world problem, not a US problem and no they haven't declared war on the US, it was a terrorist act. A country is required to declare war, not a few individuals. However it is all the US's fault. 9/11 wouldn't have happened to any other country for the sole reason that no other country goes out and sticks their nose in other peoples business. The US has covertly been going out and killing 1000s upon 1000s of innocent people in countries around the world for years. They've funded most of these terrorist cells that now defy them. The 9/11 attack was... I wanna say justified, but murder is never justified, but it was expected. If you sit and poke a dog with a stick eventually that dog is gonna strike back regardless of how much you've previously pacified it. That is what the US has been doing all over the world, poking dogs with sticks and not expecting any backlash.

The words that neel posted from an American friend of his are quite accurate. I've met a fair number of Americans, travelling threw the states, growing up on a border town... etc. They all have the high and mighty attitude. They are the worlds schoolyard bully. You have what we want, so we'll just take it because we're bigger and better. America seems to enjoy causing problems. Just look at the Freedom toast and Freedom fries... what purpose did that serve other than to cause more problems and prove that Americans lack intelligence on the actual origin of those words. Much like the schoolyeard bully, American displays a severe lack of intelligence. TV shows like Street Smarts being broadcast in other countries, or even Made in Canada... don't help your image. They make things worse. To make up for the fact that they are ridiculed and disliked, they lash out the only way they know how. With their weapons.

It's not secret that I'm Anti-American. I've seen them do enough stupid **** to dislike them (Water Issues, Lumber Issues and most recently hunting issues in northern ontario). I've encounted 1000s of them who lack intelligence, and are cocky for the sole reason that they are American. They threatened to close borders because we decriminalized possession of one ounce of marijuana. They expect everyone to do as they say and listen to them. However many of my good friends are also American. I respect them as individuals, because that's what they are... individuals. It's unfortunate that most Americans simply want to follow what their government tells them. A government that is actually a dictatorship, a two-party democracy should never be called a democracy, you have no real choice. Also every American I've enountered who's spent any time in Canada says they wish they lived here, and I always tell them the same thing... we don't want your attitude here.

I'd also like to know why America has had this change of heart in the last 50 years. Now it's their responsibility to get involved? Shall we look at World War II? The US refused to enter the war until Pearl Harbor was attacked.. and I still hear Americans refering to that as an Act of Terrorism, not war. It's funny how it's war unless it happens to them, then it's always terrorism. The US spent 2 years watching other countries take up arms and stand up to the Nazi's and they sat on their asses. Yet now it's their responsibility to get involved? Bullshit... it's just a lightly veiled cover for going in and causing more ****.

[Drunk On Duvel]

Hundreds of innocent Arab and Muslim individuals were rounded up and held for months with no idea why. Prisoners were shipped to Guantanamo Bay, where they have not been afforded the protections widely thought to be applicable under the Geneva Convention. New laws on domestic terrorism and relaxed restrictions on government surveillance of activists threaten long-established traditions of political expression. And perhaps most chilling, these detentions

heh, reminds me of the Japanese camps of WWII

I am wondering. Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Hmm, looks like intelligence is on the hotseat for misinformation. But don't worry. They will find a scapegoat if they did not already. Hey! But you never know! I might be proven wrong, and one day, we will dig up all kinds of biological weapons and a super-secret nuclear device.

Yes, leave your flames on the Assign AntiPoints link. Thanks in advance.

[Zonewalker]

Mathgirl... with the utmost of respect I think you may have missed neel's point slightly. You're right there is no justification for murder - which is what happened on 9/11... but that is not an excuse to chuck all morality out of the window and disregard the rights of a fellow human being, just because the enemy doesn't play fair. For example those POW's in Guantanamo bay are currently not being accorded any rights of POWs as defined by the geneva convention. NOTE I am NOT saying that they should be given comfy cells etc, but similarly they should have the sh*t beaten out of them for being on the wrong side. As Neel said

In a battle there are the rules of war. When you make prisoners we agreed on another ruleset. It's not about the "fight" it's about the treatment of people.

And whilst I can't claim to have suffered a tragedy like 9/11... just so you know, one of my cousins was injured by a bomb in manchester UK, in 96. The bomb was placed by the IRA.... I do know some of the flip side of this argument so I do understand your point of view - yes I would like to see the person responsible in prison and paying for his crime but similarly I recognise that whoever he is, he is still a human being. I'm not a bleeding heart liberalist but I do believe that every human being has certain rights. You can't disregard those rights when something like 9/11 happens because then you're no better than a terrorist yourself

Z

[paulie walnuts]

All posted by HT:

However it is all the US's fault. 9/11 wouldn't have happened to any other country for the sole reason that no other country goes out and sticks their nose in other peoples business.

I've met a fair number of Americans, travelling threw the states, growing up on a border town... etc. They all have the high and mighty attitude. They are the worlds schoolyard bully.

what purpose did that serve other than to cause more problems and prove that Americans lack intelligence on the actual origin of those words. Much like the schoolyeard bully, American displays a severe lack of intelligence. TV shows like Street Smarts being broadcast in other countries, or even Made in Canada... don't help your image. They make things worse. To make up for the fact that they are ridiculed and disliked

It's not secret that I'm Anti-American.

I've encounted 1000s of them who lack intelligence, and are cocky for the sole reason that they are American

I think it's more than fair to say that you HT have failed to see your very own hypocrisy. The deduction i have come to from reading your post is that everyone but the U.S is very intelligent and perfect aswell.

Do your comments strike me as extremely arrogant; the very same arrogance you claim the U.S shows the world? .......YES.

nuff said.