Is liberalism a form of communism?

[TheRepublican]

Out of interest have you read any of the works of Karl Marx, Lenin, Trotsky. Even Derrida who succumbs to the view that capitalism has meant communism is unworkable but accepts that Marxism is neccessary is order to show the ills and there are so many ills of capitalist society.

To quote the words of famous philosopher Homer J. Simpson, "Sure, communism works, in theory". Sounds great and all, but Marx and the rest of the commie nutjobs were devising a system that could never work in the real world. In the world that we inhabit, people get pissed if they are not paid their share for what they do. When people get pissed, they get pissed at something. If it's the government that's not paying them fairly, then they get pissed at the government. When a government is pissing off their citizens and they know it, they get facist on their ass. So, in a communist society, you either get pissed at the government and "disappear" into Siberia, or you pick the easiest job you can find and get paid the same as those in higher level positions. This will cause the nations economy to suck, as everyone will start to choose these easy jobs and get paid to watch their asses grow. It doesn't work and will never work, because Marx, Lenin, and that other guy didn't take into account the fact that no one does anything for free.

[bballad]

Originally posted here by TheRepublican


To quote the words of famous philosopher Homer J. Simpson, "Sure, communism works, in theory". Sounds great and all, but Marx and the rest of the commie nutjobs were devising a system that could never work in the real world. In the world that we inhabit, people get pissed if they are not paid their share for what they do. When people get pissed, they get pissed at something. If it's the government that's not paying them fairly, then they get pissed at the government. When a government is pissing off their citizens and they know it, they get facist on their ass. So, in a communist society, you either get pissed at the government and "disappear" into Siberia, or you pick the easiest job you can find and get paid the same as those in higher level positions. This will cause the nations economy to suck, as everyone will start to choose these easy jobs and get paid to watch their asses grow. It doesn't work and will never work, because Marx, Lenin, and that other guy didn't take into account the fact that no one does anything for free.

this would be socialism you are talking about. on that capitialism works well in theory, but in practice you need a blending of the two, people are short sighted and greedy if power is held in too few hands (the goverment for scoialism, large corperations for capitalism.) those in power will exploite every one else.

[Ennis]

Ok guys, once again Im not a communist, capitalist, anythingist, buddhist etc. Im just an observer in the finest philosophical tradition. I want to point things out to see how you guys answer, to see how you defend your viewpoints, why you hold them so dear etc. not because Im a radical French socialist out to demonise George Bush and overthrow world capitalism!


Paulie.

Sorry dude, but this is total bullshit. Where do you get this type of idea in your head from? This sounds like utter non-sense to most Americans. You Euro's may believe this sort of trash, but don't bring it to us as fact.

Its my opinion I dont bring it as fact. It's Europeans by the way, we dont call you Dollars.

I used to wonder why most Americans hated Europe and now I know why. It's bullshit statements like this one that really piss us off. You guys can believe what you want across that great pond, but don't be surprised if the majority of Americans like myself take issue with your absurd comments.

Excellent point, sorry anti-europeanism, sorry drivel.

There is no propaganda in the United States,

There is propaganda everywhere.

****in jealous nations.

Great way to build relations, maybe Bush could use this one with Blair next time they meet.

How many times must we spill our blood to save your asses!

The Commie bastards you speak of also split a lot of blood, a lot more fighting against Hitler.

ballad

Ennis: don't get to high and mighty european nations do there hold there own in spewing propaganda at its citizans (the hole euro fiasco has shon us that) remember western europ is the birht place of facisim (an idiology which is aining strength again

I know, the EU even my own government spew propaganda or as its called now spin. I think Paulie just dosent accept that politics serves one set of people, the politicians.

I have noticed a common mistake here, people seem to be equateing comunisim with socialism. While they normaly go hand in hand you can have capatilistc comunes and socalist representitive democracy's.

Socialism in the eyes of say a real communist would be a stepping stone to communism, social democracy is a watering down of socialism to the point where the stepping stone is removed etc. I wouldnt consider any government as yet to be truly socialist.

The Republican

So, in a communist society, you either get pissed at the government and "disappear" into Siberia, or you pick the easiest job you can find and get paid the same as those in higher level positions.

This is what happened in a Stalinist authoritarian society not a communist society. Do you honestly believe that Marx would have agreed that Russia was a communist society or that Stalin was any good, the man made communism a dead weight and allowed the US who like anybody would do knock their oppenents off the face of the earth. A problem however is that liberalism is no free to do what it wants, like I dont believe that the US form of government suits everywhere in the world, sure it works for the US and you guys are happy but does that mean it will make us all happy to live in a consumer society etc. These are thoughts not attacks. I dont care what the hell you guys believe but I do point out arguments as this thread is purely dominated by American opinion. Its too one sided and thus unhealthy.

Why hasnt anybody without an American flag under their name posted here?

[TheRepublican]

This is what happened in a Stalinist authoritarian society not a communist society. Do you honestly believe that Marx would have agreed that Russia was a communist society or that Stalin was any good, the man made communism a dead weight and allowed the US who like anybody would do knock their oppenents off the face of the earth.

The problem is that communism in many cases leads to a "Stalinist authoritarian society", perhaps not as extreme as the former USSR, but the leaders of these nations tend to not care about their citizens' individual rights. In a communist society, everyone is supposedly equal, not just meaning they have equal opportunities, but work for the sake of working only to be paid the same amount as everyone else. If I was a sysadmin in a communist society, but was being paid like a truck driver, I'd either slack off or quit and become a truck dirver. And, as communist countries need sysadmins as well as truck drivers, they better use all their new drivers to transport some new sysadmins! Because the government has to control the economy in a communist society to make sure everything is equal, and every governing body in the history of the world is composed of 50% incompetent *******s, the economy sucks and the people are unhappy. So, to ensure everyone is equally unhappy, as everyone living in a commie state has to be exactly equal, the government starts pushing people around and getting rid of dissenters. That's how "Stalinist authoritarian societies" form, when the government has too much power.

Why hasnt anybody without an American flag under their name posted here?

Yeah, we're everywhere, get used to it

[Ennis]

Originally posted here by TheRepublican





Yeah, we're everywhere, get used to it

I can count the amount of Irish people on here on one hand and still have fingers left to pick my nose!

I gets claustrophic with you yanks, god damn it send some of those puters over to Mexico or something!

[RoadClosed]

I gets claustrophic with you yanks, god damn it send some of those puters over to Mexico or something!

what about that wankers?

[rcgreen]

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2419/lensta.html

[TheRepublican]

Originally posted here by Ennis


I can count the amount of Irish people on here on one hand and still have fingers left to pick my nose!

I gets claustrophic with you yanks, god damn it send some of those puters over to Mexico or something!

Hey! I'm half Irish! Just don't live in Ireland

[bballad]

Originally posted here by TheRepublican


The problem is that communism in many cases leads to a "Stalinist authoritarian society", perhaps not as extreme as the former USSR, but the leaders of these nations tend to not care about their citizens' individual rights.

Unfortintly with out vigalance democratic sociteties also tend towards totalitarianism with out proper vigilance as well (just look at the rise of facism in many european nations and the very far right/left in the US). What it comes down to is that stupid people like to be told what to do, and their are a lot of stupid people in the world.

Oh and as for your pay analogy, well with the way H1B and offshoreing is going prety soon sysadmins in our capitalistc society will be makeing less then a truck driver.

[RoadClosed]

That offshore thing has been going on for a while. First bringing in low paying IT by the masses, putting them up in apartments and eroding current local positions. But, I was right there in the ranks shopping for the absolute cheapest bargins. We all do it and it's a collective issue. Shop around and pick a mom and pop company. I have changed my ways and now place a different strategy on my support requirements. I could go down that road and speak of political viewpoints chasing away business to foreign shores but I won't go there.

On the flip side, the "Follow the sun" tech support strategy sometimes pays off at 2am when you can get someone on the line for a critical outage in about 1 minute vs 1 hour. Twice I had some very nice experiences with Cisco TAC from Japan and another from Autstrailia. When yo ass is on the line an hour is a huge chip.