Is This Really A security Site
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Thread: Is This Really A security Site

  1. #1
    AntiOnline n00b
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    Is AO Really A security Site


    HTRegz wrote on Today 01:12 AM:

    Hey Hey,

    I'm responding here because I have no use for starting another flame war, I posted in that thread because I wanted to point out the uselessness of the argument.

    Yes I feel that there should be some sort of test for membership. It would keep the users who just want to ask simple tech support questions away. I realize that many people think that is what this site is for, but it's not. This site is for security, you should know something to discuss security. You should have to learn the basics before coming here to learn about security. It's kinda like JohnHack. He has lots of questions and obviously wants to learn but he should have had to learn the basics before we let him here, then he'd understand the answers he's given. As for what this site is, you've been a member here for less than 2 months, you're in no place to be commenting on this site.

    As for the problem being ego's, occasionally that's true, however it is still the newbies (such as yourself) fault. If they hadn't asked a stupid question (such as... should I use a firewall), than their wouldn't be people who actually know something arguing. There are two schools of thought even from people who know something and when you get a stupid question those ideals clash. If you people weren't around to ask ridiculous questions and we were simply discussing security, if we were able to discuss the latest exploits without having to sanitize for fear of skiddies being registered, if we didn't see threads with people say tcp, firewall and those are words people have to learn (check the thread in question if you are wondering.. I think it may have be Faqt who said it), then we'd be free to get to the heart of security, and those of us with knowledge would learn rather than letting our knowledge stagnate answering tech support questions. If you want to join in discussions on a security site, you should know what tcp is, what ip is, what a subnet is, these things should be second nature to you, or you shouldn't be here. The newbies show up, and want to increase their post count, so they post things like "I agree" or "good post" and a bunch of other crap one line answers, or they copy something someone else just posted.

    However you should also note that I said I've come to accept these things, that this will never be a real security site again. That's the truth of it..

    peace,
    HT
    Hi

    Why do we always fear starting another flame war why cant we discuss anything without Somebody getting offended and resorting to flames.

    And yes thanks for reminding me it's been less than 2 months. If it bothers you ok fine i will stay away all thise pissing compitions. In these two monts i have seen more flame wars between members, than real constructive discussions.

    If you people weren't around to ask ridiculous questions and we were simply discussing security,
    You said there should be some sort of test. Why not use Addicts Fourm as a test. 275 posts are a fair enough test. Trust me i have read each and every post in the Addits fourm and didn't found even a single Security related post there. It could have been put to a better use than that there are no newb's to Interfere you Security Gurus there.


    You said newb's are are a problem . I remember seeing a Fourm called Newb Security Discussion. And it's a Public fourm you can't stop people from coming. This wasen't a Security Site Anumore the day it was so;d to Jup Media, as a Compny its first objective would be earning profit, The more the number of people coming here haelps there cause a lot.

    HTRegz i have no intensions of offending you you are a very senior member here and have contributed a lot to this site. Although i do not aggree with all your thoughts but i think they are worth dissuccing and bringing to JupMedia attention why don't you try Starting a dissucion about this and see what everybody thinks and what could be done to improve all this. Ooo Ok Fear another Flame war will start see thats the bloody problem we can't discuss anything without starting a flame war.


    and the question should I use a firewall you got to take into the consideration the skill level of the poster, he was asking from a newb's prespective, we could have given a answer from a newb prespective, no but you guys showered him with all your geek stuff And started a Flame whether Newb's should post or not.

    you should know what tcp is, what ip is, what a subnet is, these things should be second nature to you, or you shouldn't be here.

    As for the problem being ego's, occasionally that's true, however it is still the newbies (such as yourself) fault.
    I know what TCP/IP or Subnet is i have a Masters Degree in computer application if that makes you feel better.

    I will do you a favour i will make this post public and leave, i don't have that many AP trust me you can easily ban me i promise i will not create another accout and leave this site. Maybe this post lead to a constructive dissuction that might make this site a bit better.

    --Good Luck--

  2. #2
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    Hey Hey,

    I stared at this post for quite some time, deciding if I wanted to reply to it or not... and I decided I may as well, since I was a PM I sent that was used to start this thread.

    Why do we always fear starting another flame war why cant we discuss anything without Somebody getting offended and resorting to flames.
    Because there have been several of these type threads in the past and no one can stay calm, newbies get all offended and get mouthy about it, and then senior members get all offended and get lippy, then some seniors defend some newbies, and some newbies defend some seniors and you get an all out flame war. If that doesn't happen then you get the newbies and the useless post-whores teaming up against the people that actually want to contribute to this site.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all newbies are useless, I'm just saying the majority are. Take a look at the number of people that join in a day, and then compare that to the number of people that contribute something worthwhile. The numbers are always low, and they never search, they ask questions that have been asked 100s of times, or that could have been answered by typing the exact same thing into google and clicking the I'm feeling lucky button. I don't blame the fact that they are new to this field for that, I blame that fact that people, and society in general, are lazy. I have posted my opinions on this site before, and that was why I used the PM this time, everyone here knows how I feel.

    You said there should be some sort of test. Why not use Addicts Fourm as a test. 275 posts are a fair enough test. Trust me i have read each and every post in the Addits fourm and didn't found even a single Security related post there. It could have been put to a better use than that there are no newb's to Interfere you Security Gurus there.
    You'll also notice then that I very seldom post in that forum, I tend to ignore it and leave it for the drivel that it is. We have several senior members who are nothing more than glorified post-whores, and they raise their numbers in their so that the general census doesn't see them doing it. Although I'll have to question how you've read every post in addicts when you don't have enough posts to enter the forum. As for Addicts being a good test, that's not true at all. We have way too many post whores around here for that to be a good test. I post a lot and we have members who joined at the same time as me, and even later than me, that have twice as many posts as I do. The titles have nothing to do with how much you know, just how much you post, and how long you've been able to survive without being banned. I think part of the problem is that we are using the term newbie in different ways. I'm talking newbies to computer security, not just this site. New users of this site should be tested for their knowledge, yes... but that doesn't mean that members that are already here have that knowledge, be they seniors, newbies or addicts, It also doesn't mean that newbies are lacking that knowledge.

    You want a prime example of this, someone with the title of Senior member posted a question on the main page under like networking security about a computer not booting. The question should have been posted in operating systems, or hardware depending on the circumstances (I believe it was a windows blue screen error, so most likely operating systems), but nope... they posted in network security. Completely off base.

    As for starting a discussion and seeing what happens, this has been attempted before. The sad part is the majority of the members of this site are complete geeks with no outside life. They rely on this site, not only for it's security but also for a life. They don't want this site to go security only. They will tell you that this is a community and that everything goes. I have come to accept this and agree with it. There are several people from this site whom I speak with on a regular basis, there are also many people that I consider to be good friends of mine. I could care less what goes on in Cosmos, GCC and Addicts these days, I care about the crap that is posted on the main page. I also know that it'll never change, which I have said. Like I stated, you'll find more interesting subjects on the Dell Tech Support Site. People get irritated when AntiOnline is refered to as a hackers resource. They should be mad, it's not even close. It's a general tech support site. The slogan of the site should be changed to reflect that -- "AntiOnline - Putting AOLs technicians out of work one post at a time.". This site does not provide Maximum Secuity for a Connected World. Most of the time we're supplying tech support for those who can't connect, and those who are connected don't even have an understanding of basic security, let alone maximum security, whatever that may be.

    and the question should I use a firewall you got to take into the consideration the skill level of the poster, he was asking from a newb's prespective, we could have given a answer from a newb prespective, no but you guys showered him with all your geek stuff And started a Flame whether Newb's should post or not.
    I have no interest what-so-ever in taking into account the skill level of the poster. If the poster doesn't understand a response, they can ask another question or go learn something themselves instead of asking to be spoonfed.

    At times this site reminds me of my college classes. We had a prof who said, here's the Apache manual, here's the Apache tarball now go install it on your computer, I want to see it running by next weeks class. Everyone would get pissed off because he didn't hand out step-by-step instructions on how to install it. The problem is that people don't want to learn anymore. They want everything laid out for them nice and easy like.

    I know what TCP/IP or Subnet is i have a Masters Degree in computer application if that makes you feel better.
    I wasn't implying that you didn't know what those terms meant, you is both singular and plural... although judging from some of your typos (yes I'm aware that this post is most likely riddled with them), I'm surprised you have your masters... I really expected you to be a high school student.

    I will do you a favour i will make this post public and leave, i don't have that many AP trust me you can easily ban me i promise i will not create another accout and leave this site. Maybe this post lead to a constructive dissuction that might make this site a bit better.
    I also never asked you to leave, or implied anything of the sort. I have seen you contribute to the site, so I'm not quite sure how many comments really applied to you. I pointed out that you had the newbie title simply because you made judgements on this site that dated back quite a ways.

    as for f2b:

    Again I could care less if newbies are scared to post. Everyone things newbies should be allowed a grace period where they aren't negged, I disagree with this. Post something that doesn't belong and be negged. You said it yourself, there are rules in the FAQ. If they haven't read them that's not my problem... it's theirs. Half the time it's over things where common sense should have prevailed. As far as seniors telling others what to do, it's not a matter of that. It's a matter of using APs to say what stays and what doesn't. After all that's what the AP system is for. If you neg enough stupid people away, they'll eventually get the point. As far as creating your own forum, many users have done that, some of them have been attacked for ripping off AO and so on.

    My thoughts in that PM were my own business and really nobody else's but read away, enjoy, and post. Most people around here know my thoughts and they also know that they aren't going to change. I've lightened up on the whole security only thing, but I still believe this place is nothing more than glorified tech support with a bunch of post-whoring senior members.

    Peace,
    HT

    [Edit]
    Apparently f2b deleted his comments, but I'll leave that section in my post so that others may read and enjoy.
    [/Edit]
    IT Blog: .:Computer Defense:.
    PnCHd (Pronounced Pinched): Acronym - Point 'n Click Hacked. As in: "That website was pinched" or "The skiddie pinched my computer because I forgot to patch".

  3. #3
    Yes HT i "DID" delete my post, but in my haste of the moment, i said things that were bios towards certain subjects.
    So once i had calmed down and re-read my post, i decided that it would be best to delete it.
    As if i left it then i woulda been the one with cake-on my face.
    But really after thoroughly reading your post HT i've realised that things have been obviously said, and people have taken things the wrong way.
    But i still stand on the fact that the "ADDICTS Forum" is just as bad as the General Discussion forums, the only difference is that those that carn't access that forum don't know about the trash that get's put in there.

    So the only possible solution to weed out the post-whores to the actual contributors would be to disable post count from both the General Discussion Forums, and the Addicts forums.
    And then we'll see how quickly the rubbish topics will stop being posted in those particular forums..

    And anyhow like yeah that's about it.

    So cheers
    .:front2back:.

  4. #4
    AntiOnline n00b
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    Hi

    A forum for people who have a good knowledge of computers/security & who do not post meaninglessly. You must have 275 posts under your belt before you're able to view the threads in this forum.
    lol

    Every Newb that comes here thinks Addits as the Place where "Maximum Sequrity for the Connected World " is dicussed . They just want to reach there as soon as possible. And when they do access it the first time find it not worth It. Addits could have been but to better use than this.

    You said 275 Post condition is not well enough to evaluate a person , i don't understand There was a concept called Self Moderation here. We could weeded out people i think that was its purpose. And Some Seniors Being Post Whores How come they have 11 green peas, You as a Members Contrubuted to their act. What is the heck AP's for. Why the hell you Members let them reach to the position to what they have.

    The members Make this site what it is , otherwise it would have been another **** hole in the cyberspace. So why can't we steer it the way we want it to be.

    You Seniors Have been together hare for a long time Probably develepod a bond and thats not uncommon. And They want to run this place as your Private Fourm, Every Newb it treated as a intruder into your private space( i am not talking about everybody).

    and i still beleve Addits Should be put to the Purpose which i think it was ment for rather than post whoring and occassionally Evaluate Newb's.

    Why not leave the Public face of AO as it is and use fourms like Addits to do the think that most here love dissuccing Serious Computer Security.

    Most people around here know my thoughts and they also know that they aren't going to change
    I don't want to cahge you or in other words it's not in my power to change anybody. I am giving my openion. Coz you specifically mentioned " however it is still the newbies (such as yourself) fault" Such as yourself. Thats compelled me to respond.

    I have no interest what-so-ever in taking into account the skill level of the poster. If the poster doesn't understand a response, they can ask another question or go learn something themselves instead of asking to be spoonfed.
    Not fair Everybody is not a Expert in comp. and they expect the Seniors here to be so they just want their openion, and we can easily evaluate their skill level and respond dosen't hurt much. I thought Thats what "Newbe Security Question" and "Network Security Dicussion" are two seperate Fourms.

    although judging from some of your typos (yes I'm aware that this post is most likely riddled with them), I'm surprised you have your masters... I really expected you to be a high school student.
    English is not my First language so i ight have problem Translating my thoughts into words and for spellings they have always been the problem can't help it sorry. Actually i am Doing Final Year MCA.

    And regarding the post Comp not Booting Properly being on fromt page. It remained there for almost two days now . I thaught about pointing it out to the member who started that Tread, But i thought it would be nice if some Senior Member did that; but nobody did . If it have been some newbe doing that everybody would have been jumping up and down. And you know what surprissed me the most even the Mods didn't took it off the front page. Just checked it's still there. . Why?

    I disagree with this. Post something that doesn't belong and be negged.
    Does that also applies to Seniors as well , There hell lot of posts by Seniors that dosen't belong and Extremely Positive. And i don't see many seniors getting many Neg AP's. Those Green Peas Deside a hell lot of things around here.

    I am not trying to flame you i am just trying to give my openion on how i think this could be made a better place. because there have been more Flame Wars in here than constructive discussions for which i joined . That was the reason i am going to leave not you. People are negged for their openion and given Ap's for absolute **** posts. and i know people will soon drop in saying this have been like this for years who the hell are you, two months old to say.

  5. #5
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    swordfish... if HTRegz sent you a pm then why not keep it private. it almost seems as if you were wanting to incite another flame war. I dont see anything constructive about this thread. As far as what goes on the addicts forum its a place where the vetrans of this site can go and get away from all the stupid newbie "why use a firewall to hack my girlfriends hotmail linux distro" ****. And this might have been covered else where but how did you gain acsess to the addicts forum?

  6. #6
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    I've seen a couple of security related posts in the addicts forum. You just have to grope around a little to find them. Anyways, that was pointless. I'm happy if I see a couple of security posts per week. Basically I just browse through what interests me these days and leave the rest alone. I rarely post unless I see someone I can help. I never have any good questions to ask anymore. On a lighter note, I think there should be a message when you click to start a thread that tells you to search on AO and google before you post. Like HT said, many questions have been asked 100s of times and I think a message like that would help to reduce the amount of times they get asked. If you want to talk real security, jump on IRC. That's where the real security stuff is discussed. Those are just the thoughts of an IRC junkie. It used to be AO was my life, now it has gone toward IRC being my life. So I'm a loser, don't listen to me. I'd like to give a shoutout to Candi whose birthday was yesterday. I love you babe and I hope your daughter is all better now . HT, get shoutcast up now! And swordfish, it's your decision to leave AO or not. I like to come every once in a while to read some threads. And every once in a while I learn something. Good luck with your school and i hope that masters lands you a nice job. You pwn HT. laterz yo.

  7. #7
    AntiOnline n00b
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    Hi ZomBieMann77

    he had a Point To prove by Sending It As a PM

    I'm responding here because I have no use for starting another flame war,
    I had a Point To prove by Dicussing it publicaly

    Why do we always fear starting another flame war why cant we discuss anything
    Until You Dropped in and proved me wrong. lol this is a Flame War, and i see flames all over the place.

    Flame war with whome, Actully i am trying to say the same thing as HTRegz is the only Difference is He says he has started to live with it , and i am saying why . And the point was something else just wanted to see if it can be done without somebody saing i am offended and Flaming Negging, I got my answer and HTRegz no need to reply any more i got my answer. Flame can start without Newebs Most of the time it is Seniors that start it

    Good Bye

    and Best of Luck Guys---
    --Good Luck--

  8. #8
    Just a Virtualized Geek MrLinus's Avatar
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    This wasen't a Security Site Anumore the day it was so;d to Jup Media, as a Compny its first objective would be earning profit, The more the number of people coming here haelps there cause a lot.
    Ah yes. It's not our fault, it's all their fault! Hate to say it but AO was changing before JUPM bought it. That's reality of the Internet in general. Heck, it was changing the day after I first signed up for Internet access -- on dialup at a whooping speed of 2,400baud and being charged 10 cents an hour. Unlimited access was determined by how long my modem could stay connected before the rain or snow crapped out the old copper wires.

    Old excuse. IMHO, it doesn't fly any more.

    Flame can start without Newebs Most of the time it is Seniors that start it
    That's a very general statement and one that's not necessarily true. Certainly there are some Seniors who enjoy flame wars. That's not an unusual thing. In society we see people who like to have arguments (sans Monty Python unfortunately). I think that the proportion of those wanting to "have arguments" here is relatively small.

    That said, I thought I'd add some comments/opinions on some of the things highlighted here:

    • - yes. AO's population is ever changing and shifting like the sands of the Sahara (how's that for an analogy?). We go from newbie central to more serious and back to newbie central. Such is life. I suspect that it might be partly because of movies or books making reference to "hacking" and people want to learn about that cool new fad -- hacking.

      - people don't know how to learn thanks to an overworked, underpaid and undertrained education system. We have many teachers (K - 12) and professors (colleges/universities) that have lost their desire to teach. This affects the 50% from the educator that makes up the 100% of education. With that being lessened substantially, the 50% effort and interest from by the student is also lost. What many of us consider simple tasks (e.g., using the new fangled search feature in the titles, reading FAQs, using Google, etc.) are quite new and novel to others. Plus the media says it's "point and click" what "hackers" do so it shouldn't be that hard right?

      - computers are getting more complicated. Think about: when was the last time you took apart your car and rebuilt the engine? Not done that often. Older cars (hobbists) often do it but I don't think I've seen too many people take apart a 2004 Sunfire's engine because they wanted to. The same principle applies to OSes and to a limited degree, computer hardware (modding is great but I suspect few have soldered parts in place). OSes are so huge and bloated that it's impossible to know a single one fully, let alone multiple OSes. Desire is great but dammit! Jim! I'm just a doctor! (ie., I have limitations in real life as to how far I can go within the time available).

      - this is the Internet (for those of you who weren't sure). It is a global environment (think CompuGlobalHyperMegaNet). While the main language is egotistically english, it's not the native language of others. A bit of tolerence and patience is worthwhile. You never know. They may have the next great thing; they just don't know how to get the point across.

      - this is a community. A community that stares at it's navel too long will go hungry and die. I love security but I do enjoy other things. That's what GCC, Cosmos and other non-security related forums are for. Yes, people come here with less than spectacular knowledge. Welcome to the 21st Century. But the learning process, IMHO and FWIW, is a two way street. If you cannot explain something to a new person, then perhaps your own understanding is lacking and might require a little more "reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee--seeeeearch". Never look at it as a bad thing when a newbie asks an obvious question. Perhaps teaching them how to use search engines to make it more understandable (I'm sorry but Google and Amazon's Search engines are pulling up some weird data results lately -- I put CISSP in at Amazon and get a kids book?!?!)

      - Ok. So the Addicts forum isn't as fancy or hardcore as intended. Microsoft wanted to make an OS everyone used. Look where those intentions got us. Maybe it's an indication of what security has become (as was pointed out in another security forum): wide but shallow. We have breadth but little depth because .. well, there's just too damn much.


    That all said, as I've followed this and I find it interesting that people don't know when to stop. Just because someone sends you a PM (BTW, IMHO, it was bad netiquette to post it without at least asking first) doesn't mean you have to get the last word in. I mean, really. Was it worth getting the last word in? And before someone says "Well, he started it!!!". Try to keep in mind that this isn't kindergarten (although I have to wonder sometimes).

    Welp, that's my ramble. Take it as you will. BTW, who here keeps thinking "spechacker" in the back of their mind when reading some of the posts here.
    Goodbye, Mittens (1992-2008). My pillow will be cold without your purring beside my head
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  9. #9
    Dead Man Walking
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    How did my posting have anything to do with turning this into a flame war. I would love to know. Yes i negged you. It was for taking an attempt to make this a private conversation and turning it public in a sorry ass publicity stunt. I still think it was a shitty thing to do. And obviously im not the only one
    it was bad netiquette to post it without at least asking first
    If you dont like the responses you get then go the hell away

  10. #10
    AO Curmudgeon rcgreen's Avatar
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    I'll have to question how you've read every post in addicts when you don't have enough posts to enter the forum.
    how did you gain acsess to the addicts forum?
    Well it is a h4X0rer site after all!
    I came in to the world with nothing. I still have most of it.

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