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  1. #11
    hey nihil,

    this isn't the first time you are making such accusations, perhaps you are one of them in need of social engineering to crack a system or so, but i'm just here to learn something from this site, and answers like you give them will most likely scare people away from this site!!!!

    and another thing, i don't think that your in such a position to tell me what to do, if i want do something illegal with the things i've learned, then that's my choice, and my responsibility, not yours or anyone else!!!

    but don't worry, i wouldn't even take a look in someone elses system without him knowing it, it just isn't right!!!

    b.t.w. if i rename the taskmgr to something like taskmgr.old, windows will still keep overwriting my file as far as i see, so what will that help?? i already got a backup though from the file AND from my harddisk....

    but to learn something is to test, and to test is to make misstakes..... so what??? how else will i learn?

  2. #12
    Senior Member Maestr0's Avatar
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    First off, **** MS's EULA, if you bought it, do what you want with it.

    Second,

    [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Winlogon]
    If you want to disable the Scheme completely, modify the value named "SFCDisable" equal to "0xffffff9d". If you want to enable WFP in the future, set this value equal to "0". If you would like to disable WFP, but still have the option to enable it upon each boot then set the value equal to "1". If you want to disable WFP only for the next time you boot, then set the value equal to "2". You can also enable WFP with pop-ups disabled. To do this, set the value equal to "4".

    http://www.insideproject.com/showguide.cfm?guideid=22


    -Maestr0
    \"If computers are to become smart enough to design their own successors, initiating a process that will lead to God-like omniscience after a number of ever swifter passages from one generation of computers to the next, someone is going to have to write the software that gets the process going, and humans have given absolutely no evidence of being able to write such software.\" -Jaron Lanier

  3. #13
    Super Moderator: GMT Zone nihil's Avatar
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    and another thing, i don't think that your in such a position to tell me what to do, if i want do something illegal with the things i've learned, then that's my choice, and my responsibility, not yours or anyone else!!!
    When I am on the jury you silly little boy .............you WILL understand?

    Maestr0...............are you sure that you are on the right site.............have YOU ever read the opening page...........and actually understood it?..............or are you just too bloody arrogant?

    b.t.w. if i rename the taskmgr to something like taskmgr.old, windows will still keep overwriting my file as far as i see, so what will that help?? i already got a backup though from the file AND from my harddisk....
    If that is ALL you know about Windows, I repeat...............leave it alone!

    This is getting pathetic?

    Well, I leave it open to the forum.............
    If you cannot do someone any good: don't do them any harm....
    As long as you did this to one of these, the least of my little ones............you did it unto Me.
    What profiteth a man if he gains the entire World at the expense of his immortal soul?

  4. #14
    Senior Member Maestr0's Avatar
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    "O that my vexation were weighed, and all my calamity laid in the balances!
    For then it would be heavier than the sand of the sea; therefore my words have been rash.
    For the arrows of the Almighty are in me; my spirit drinks their poison; the terrors of God are arrayed against me. "

    This is my lamentation because for the first time in my AO history I have been negged, and more than once at that! But seriously, red gifs aside I feel I should expand upon my original statement and adress the silent grievances of the unnamed masses. First off lets look at our beloved EULA from Win2k:

    "* Limitations on Reverse Engineering, Decompilation and
    Disassembly. You may not reverse engineer, decompile, or
    disassemble the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, except and only to the
    extent that such activity is expressly permitted by
    applicable law notwithstanding this limitation."

    Hmmm, in other words you can RE as long as its not illegal. What is illegal? Until the DMCA reverse engineering itself was not considered illegal at all:

    "Sega v. Accolade, decided by the Ninth Circuit in 1992, makes clear that, in certain instances, the unauthorized disassembly of a computer program's object code in order to derive source code is not a copyright infringement. The Ninth Circuit applied the 'fair use' balancing test to determine that Accolade's use of reverse engineering techniques to produce an 'intermediate copy' of Sega's source code did not constitute copyright infringement. Accolade never distributed the intermediate copy commercially, but instead used it only to extract unprotectable ideas a sequence of bytes which act as a software key from Sega's game program. This key was then incorporated into Accolade's games, enabling them to 'unlock' and run on Sega's game platforms. The court cautioned, however, that disassembly involves the making of a literal copy of a program, and it is permissible only when necessary to extract the unprotectable ideas. It is unclear how far this fair use right extends."

    Under the DMCA it is illegal to RE in order to disable or circumvent a copyright protection scheme only,however it is legal to reverse engineeer for certain reasons, one of which is interoperability, aka to write your own taskmanager. Funny enough this law only applies to Americans, whereas REing is still perfectly acceptable in the EU:

    "Article 5: Exceptions to the restricted acts


    1. In the absence of specific contractual provisions, the acts referred to in
    Article 4 (a) and (b) shall not require authorization by the rightholder
    where they are necessary for the use of the computer program by the lawful
    acquirer in accordance with its intended purpose, including for error correction.


    2. The making of a back-up copy by a person having a right to use the
    computer program may not be prevented by contract insofar as it is
    necessary for that use.


    3. The person having a right to use a copy of a computer program shall be
    entitled, without the authorization of the rightholder, to observe, study
    or test the functioning of the program in order to determine the ideas
    and principles which underlie any element of the program if he does so
    while performing any of the acts of loading, displaying, running,
    transmitting or storing the program which he is entitled to do."

    <snip>

    " Article 6: Decompilation


    1. The authorization of the rightholder shall not be required where reproduction of the
    code and translation of its form within the meaning of Article 4 (a) and (b) are
    indispensable to obtain the information necessary to achieve the interoperability
    of an independently created computer program with other programs, provided that
    the following conditions are met:... "

    However in the US we face a somewhat more restrictive setting outlined by the DMCA:

    "(f) Reverse Engineering. -
    (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.
    (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.
    (3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.
    (4) For purposes of this subsection, the term ''interoperability'' means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged." - [17 USC 1201(f)].

    It is interesting to note that you must ask permission first, so on that point he may be in violation (nothing a quick E-mail won't fix), however it is also worth noting you do NOT have to RECIEVE permission, only ask. So, in other words it is NOT illegal to RE programs to write your own taskmanager, ask Bunnie Huang (Hacking the X-Box) or Greg Hoglund & GaryMcGraw (Exploiting Software) who have all published detailed descriptions of how to RE Microsoft hardware and software.

    Nihil, as for me being on the wrong site, I am here to learn about, and discuss information security. I am NOT here to defend software vendor's rights to produce shitty code,enforce their questionable business tactics wrapped in untested legal jargon, or help spread fear,uncertainty, and doubt in order to boost sales. Your attitude towards reverse engineering shows you know very little of how security researchers and others go about discovering and fixing security flaws in order to protect those who use these products and perhaps you would be more at home here

    One more thing, this is a forum for security professionals, I expect that everyone here is an adult or at least attempts to behave like one. This is not Disneyland or daycare. If you don't like my language, you can go **** yourself.

    -Maestr0

    PS: I almost forgot, for those fans of MS EULA's:

    "You acknowledge and agree that Microsoft may automatically check the version of the OS Product and/or its components that you are utilizing and may provide upgrades or fixes to the OS Product that will be automatically downloaded to your computer,"

    In other words if you have XP sp1 installed you've given MS admin access. And the list goes on.....

    "You agree that in order to protect the integrity of content and software protected by digital rights management ('Secure Content'), Microsoft may provide security related updates to the OS Components that will be automatically downloaded onto your computer. These security related updates may disable your ability to copy and/or play Secure Content and use other software on your computer. If we provide such a security update, we will use reasonable efforts to post notices on a web site explaining the update." Smile, you're getting screwed.



    \"If computers are to become smart enough to design their own successors, initiating a process that will lead to God-like omniscience after a number of ever swifter passages from one generation of computers to the next, someone is going to have to write the software that gets the process going, and humans have given absolutely no evidence of being able to write such software.\" -Jaron Lanier

  5. #15
    If that is ALL you know about Windows, I repeat...............leave it alone!
    if you knew more about it, then why would you say such a thing???

    Maestr0, thanks for the reaction, and i'll have to say i agree with you, it's getting pretty irritating that someone with a big mouth, is only negging us for talking about a subject he doesn't like.... it would be better not to get a reaction of him at all then.

    no wonder nihil has so much posts, as all he can do is give comment on others!

    as for you nihil, nihil stands for nothing, and to me you are just that!
    we're done talking!

  6. #16
    Super Moderator: GMT Zone nihil's Avatar
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    For those who have not fallen asleep already:

    it's getting pretty irritating that someone with a big mouth, is only negging us for talking about a subject he doesn't like.... it would be better not to get a reaction of him at all then.
    I hope that I am not being referred to, as I have NOT given anyone negative antipoints for posts on this thread............in fact, not to the persons involved on any thread.

    BTW, in the quote above, "of" should be "from"

    Others are entitled to their different opinions, just as I am entitled to mine?

    L.I.N.U.X.

    I am afraid I cannot be bothered to do the bright colors (you got the capital letters), but I am saying if you want to mess...........go open source?

    Remember that the original question was about fiddling with a compiled executable in the Windows system file????

    I say: "not a good idea" and will stand by that

    I am sorry if I have caused any discomfort to non-contributors to this thread, it was not my intention, and if you are new, or a guest...........we usually don't spit our dummies and get out of our prams..........honest (trust me I'm a CPA )

    Cheers
    If you cannot do someone any good: don't do them any harm....
    As long as you did this to one of these, the least of my little ones............you did it unto Me.
    What profiteth a man if he gains the entire World at the expense of his immortal soul?

  7. #17
    BTW, in the quote above, "of" should be "from"
    yes, you're right, my mistake...

    Others are entitled to their different opinions, just as I am entitled to mine?
    ok, but what about accusing me of wanted to do something like writing a virus or some other sh*t??

    L.I.N.U.X.

    I am afraid I cannot be bothered to do the bright colors (you got the capital letters), but I am saying if you want to mess...........go open source?
    already got it, but i like to mess with windows 2, just for fun. (and to learn)

    I am sorry if I have caused any discomfort to non-contributors to this thread, it was not my intention, and if you are new, or a guest...........we usually don't spit our dummies and get out of our prams..........honest
    this goes for me too, i just want to learn, don't start a fight or anything...

  8. #18
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    You need to disable Windows File Protection ,to do that Get wfpdisable from www.@stake.com or
    contact me for a complete Windows File Protection Application.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Zonewalker's Avatar
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    ok to defend Nihil here - I am the one who has given Maestr0 negative AP's, I have not given any to lepricaun - and I'll explain why....

    Maestr0 I'll come on to your exposition of the EULA in a moment - however what you have explicitly said i.e. **** MS EULA, is against the law and as an Addict you shouldn't really be encouraging this type of behaviour. I don't want to come off 'holier than thou' because I'm not and I don't wish to bear you any ill will - if it comes across like that it's not intended to so if you've taken it like that I am sorry - they are red gifs as you know. I gave them because I do disagree with your post and because I don't think you should be openly (privately is an entirely different matter) advocating breaking the EULA - you and everyone else is aware that linux is a viable alternative. Ok so that explains why I disagree with you (I hope).

    Second why negs to you and not lepricaun - you're an Addict with a fair few AP's - you're in a better position to take the hit than lepricaun - I can see why lepricaun is asking the question and of itself I don't think he should be negged - anyway Nihil is doing a good enough job of saying why he really should leave that kind of thing alone. Though Lepricaun if I may point out - Nihil was saying why in his opinion you shouldn't be doing what you are doing - from your earlier post I see you recognise that so hopefully no hard feelings are being held.

    ok the EULA.... Maestr0 you said

    Hmmm, in other words you can RE as long as its not illegal. What is illegal? Until the DMCA reverse engineering itself was not considered illegal at all:
    actually thats not how I read the EULA - it says you may not RE under any circumstances UNLESS there is an law explicitly permitting it - not quite the same as the way you have interpreted it. International law being what it is we could argue about what does and does not permit this until hell froze over - I don't propose we do this because it's pointless and I suspect that neither of us are qualified lawyers specialising in software patents. As far as I know RE in the EU falls under the same rules as the US - there are differences in the details yes but the general sweep is the same.

    bugger - I have to be in a meeting in a mo... forgot

    ok quickly then... one other thing you are forgetting is that when you purchase MS softeware you agree to the EULA - it is a contract so this also falls under contract law as well as patent/copyright law. Yes I know MS are screwing everyone when you agree to the EULA - I didn't say I was a fan of the EULA but unfortunately it is the law which you are advocating breaking - I beleieve that was nihils stance ( I could be wrong)

    oh and

    One more thing, this is a forum for security professionals, I expect that everyone here is an adult or at least attempts to behave like one. This is not Disneyland or daycare. If you don't like my language, you can go **** yourself.
    yes it is - but not everyone here is an adult - there are trolls here etc as you well know - nihil has raised a valid point and as a professional this aspect of security is something you need to take into account. This may come off as having a go at you - it's not but I'm now extreemely pushed for time and don't have as much time as I thought I had - hopefully we can come back to this later and discuss it more reasonably?

    Z
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes

  10. #20
    ok, thanks for all the replies....
    no hard feelings to anyone... and if it is illegal, i'll let it go...

    grtz

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