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  1. #1
    AO Ancient: Team Leader
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    Interested in the reaction...

    The torture photographs.......

    I have my opinions.... I have a fairly clear idea of the difference between torture and interrogation techniques as a result of a few years in Her Majesty's service..... I'm interested to hear what is thought by the members here.....

    Comments.....
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
    \"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools.\" - Thucydides

  2. #2
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    There's a line where interrogation techniques become torture, and everybody probably draws that line at another distance...

    There's a war going on, and in times of war, different rules apply then in times of peace. It might not make sense to have rules in times of war, but there are rules regardless (as defined by the Geneva Conventions). The US signed those laws, and should apply them. Action has been taken against the people involved, and as far as I'm concerned: case closed.

    Of course it sucks that the US are fighting a war against a regime that never signed those laws. Bummer. The US is the bigger person in this case: they could just have said "There's a war going on... they don't follow the rules, we won't follow them either", but instead the government stood up and punished the ones involved. If it would've been the other way around (Iraqi's torturing Americans), they probably would have gotten away with it. If the US would capture them, they'd show they're the bigger person again by giving those people a fair trial.

    I'll have to stop now before people start thinking I'm pro-government

  3. #3
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    I'll have to stop now before people start thinking I'm pro-government
    Too late As I read your post, that was my exact thought Anyway's, it's a good point that we are following those rules while they've been using guerrilea warfare techniques throughout the whole war.
    Space For Rent.. =]

  4. #4
    Senior Member nihil's Avatar
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    May I suggest that they are in "too good condition".............also, after we have made them squeel..........we "sanitise"

    God help anyone I catch with a mirror group "arsewipe" in their possession...........well I will not see them.........they are barred from my three local watering holes....................

    Has anyone actually noticed that little gobbits of garbage-slime expect the "big boys" to play by the rules?...........Geneva convention..............well I will not go into my usual diatribe about Swiss war criminals ( the whole damn lot of them are, by complicity and/or consent)........but they can keep their convention along with where they keep their morality? parsimonious slimy b*****ds

    Once with the polygraph............the second time with drugs........resolve the differences with electricity..........but I guess I was a bit of a farm worker in my day?

    Hot damn.............if these newspapers had any morality, they would go for justice?...........I would impeach them (newspaper editors) for treason (still the death penalty over here ) and see just how "holy" they felt? It is a nasty little " let us boost our sales fake"?

    That in my NOT humble opinion............it is how I feel

    CM (charlie mike)

    Not my name.........some might understand?

  5. #5
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    Is treating prisoners (innocent or not) like animals, justice? I could understand the "an eye for an eye" principle if I wanted to, but I really can't understand this one...

    Abu Ghraib was famous under Saddam's regime: those who went in never came out. In comes the US to liberate Iraq from that regime, and from places lke Abu Ghraib. But guess what: some nitwits do the worst thing that could ever happen to the liberation/install new government process. How can you ever expect any Iraqi to ever trust the new government after something like this?
    More than being inhumane, those "soldiers" (shouldn't call them soldiers... should call them animals) harmed the "liberation" of Iraq.

    Clear Mission... yer.

  6. #6
    Macht Nicht Aus moxnix's Avatar
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    The US signed those laws, and should apply them.
    Actually, the US never signed the Geneva Conventions. They had a major part in the writing of them, but when it came time to sign them, congress wouldn't approve them and so the US never did sign them.
    You can easily google the signatories of the conventions, but you will not find the US amoung them.
    \"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Champagne in one hand - strawberries in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming WOO HOO - What a Ride!\"
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  7. #7
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    On March 23th of last year, Bush and Blair accused Iraq of breaching Geneva Conventions (demanding fair treatment of POWs) when American and British prisoners were being interrogated on TV.
    Iraq then stated that it'd follow Geneva Conventions.

    The US signed the Geneva Conventions in 1955, Iraq in 1956, btw. They both signed the four Geneva Conventions (held in 1949). The US never signed the 1977 additions, though.

    The United States also ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights in 1992, stating that "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
    In 1994, the US signed the Convention against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.

    The US were right when they said that POWs shouldn't be put on TV, based on Geneva Conventions (which they both signed). Now Iraq is right, based on Geneva Conventions.
    And yes, they've both been wrong, Iraq more than the US...

  8. #8
    Senior Member Zonewalker's Avatar
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    being as no one has thrown this in yet - some of you might like to take a look at this BBC article regarding claims that UK forces have also been torturing Iraqi's - incidentally this may explain Nihils reaction to some of you (and yes I do agree with Nihils reaction to anyone caught with a Mirror group newspaper)

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3680327.stm
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes

  9. #9
    AO Ancient: Team Leader
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    Ok....

    I had my suspicions when I heard about the photographs about what they would be. Having seen them I was correct.

    While it is not broadly trained a captured person's interrogation begins at the moment of capture. The intent at that point is not to hurt or harm the captive any more than subduing him and maintaining him in a managable state, (some people just don't know when to stop resisting). From there they are searched. A properly trained searcher knows and understands that this is a phase of disassociation. Everything that is found on the captive that is harmless is placed in front of him, if he carries photographs of loved ones they go face up where they can be seen. The point: His whole life is disappearing before his eyes and he is being disassociate with that life.

    At the completion of the search he is bagged, (hooded usually with a hessian sack, (sandbag)), Tidy-tied, (Wrists tied with cable ties), with his pants round his ankles, (they came down in the search.... dont ask....), and secured. Did I mention that from the beginning of the search absolute silence is maintained by the search teams? Isolation has also begun, the bagging is a further part of that process.

    The captive will then be transported back through the system to the interrogation points. That silence continues.... They are handled using hand signals, if they are to be moved they are lifted, pointed and gently pushed in the direction you want them to go. Need them to turn? Grasp the shoulder on the inside of the turn and gently but firmly rotate them until they face the new direction of travel, then gently push them again.

    At the interrogation point certain captives will be selected for further interrogation immediately due to their rank or unit insignia, (silly boys for leaving them on really..... ). Others will be quickly interrogated to determine whether they are "worth" further attention.

    Those being interrogated have a problem.... The isolation continues, (details are unable to be given by me), along with other _pain free_ methods, (same as before). For those wondering I had to sign a special piece of paper during a portion of my training over and above the original "Official Secrets Act" one I signed when I joined..... I don't like being in cages!!! 'Nuff said...

    The pictures actually depict a portion of the process that is accepted the world over as a "humane" process for interrogation.... I know that it sounds like a contradiction in terms but it really isn't. They come to no physical harm, no drugs or other things are used on them. Do they have "games" played with them? Of course, the chap on the box with the "electric" cables on his wrists is a good example. It's all mind games though, because every interrogator worth his salt knows that information gleaned under physical duress is at best unreliable and at worst a lie to prevent more pain.

    The worst thing about this whole affair is the pure unprofessionalism of the 800th Military Police. I understand that there are some that question the authenticity and frankly the cigarette hanging out of the one girls face is questionable at a quick glance but give me a break...... How dumb and small minded are these dimwits. They are taking part in a very serious process.... They aren't doing it in a professional manner.

    That's what they are being punished for - stupidity and unprofessionalism in the face of the enemy.
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
    \"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools.\" - Thucydides

  10. #10
    Senior Member OverdueSpy's Avatar
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    TigerShark - I see the Military has a 30 year contract on your brain also. It does get furstrating. Good post though.

    Negative - you comment of "How can you ever expect any Iraqi to ever trust the new government after something like this?" sounds really petty. This is akin to saying that after 9/11 how can any American trust an Arab? And yet we Americans are expected to be above the fray and set the humanitarian standard and not hate all Arabs, even though their religious text of the Koran (sp) tells its readers to kill infedels in the name of Allah. Sorry to point finger here Negative. These type of out of the box statements frustrate me to no end, and at this moment I can't think of a better way to make my point.
    The mentally handicaped are persecuted in this great country, and I say rightfully so! These people are NUTS!!!!

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