Windows will continue to rule.......
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Thread: Windows will continue to rule.......

  1. #1
    AO Ancient: Team Leader
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    Windows will continue to rule.......

    This isn't intended to cause a "my OS os better than yours " argument..... It's my observations as someone who tried to run a linux install some 5 or 6 years ago, gave up, stuck with Windows, but that seriously want's to use linix for it's better support of security related tools.

    I'll put my "personal" thought's in square brackets.....

    So... I order my shiny new Redhat Linix Fedora Core Bible... Maybe it was the wrong one to order.... But there's a gazillion flavors out there... who would know? [There's really only WinXP/Pro available to the masses].

    I eagerly unpack it and decide, having read the system requirements detailed in the book that to run the GUI, [Granny isn't going to start learning to type and, frankly, till I get used to it, I'm figuring the GUI will fit my "windows" mindset], that the "less than cutting edge" laptop I wanted to use it on, (that Linux exponents say runs on less "adequate" hardware), just isn't going to cut it. [In fact, they are basically the same as an efficient XP install - shock].

    Ok, no problem, I understand dual boot, partitions etc. I'll repartition and dual boot it on my spanking new Dell Inspiron 1100 with the 2.4G pentium 4 and 512Mb Ram.... That should "kill it". The install was actually not very painful and it didn't screw up my WinXP load.... Yay...

    Well.... Now the problems start..... First, the damn thing won't show me more than 640x480 screen on a nice 15" monitor.... Bummer trying to work on an 8x5 screen. The problem here is that I am also in my satellite office - wireless... I don't know how to access the NTFS partition where I can download the fix so I have to wait till I get back to work and hope that it really does recognize the eth0 and conect me to the sites I need. [If it doesn't then I'm screwed, I don't have a floppy on here that it does try to mount and I'm not skilled in mounting a "homemade" CD.... my problem? Of course... But I'm coming from a noob POV here].

    Well, I get back to work and, fortunately, the eth0 really does work..... Well, if I don't use DHCP which my network is perfectly well set up to provide..... I think I actually caused a conflict.... Unfortunately, being the linux noob I am, I have no idea how to find my IP address - yeah, Gnome gives me my DNS servers etc. but not my IP..... [Thats deeper than granny could go..... but it was a source of frustration]. Well.... I set my IP as fixed and it worked. I d/led the RPM, double clicked it and waited....This isn't a slow box.... well... it isn't in XP.... Some 15 seconds later it reacts..... after my thoughts of "well, you can't just double click an rpm".... [ok... it isn't "optimized".... but it isn't fast..... It's slower than my XP load.... Much slower.... Noticed it on several things including boot]

    So now it fills the screen.... "Magic" thinks me, now I can work..... Well.... my real job calls so I find myself back at that satellite office... wireless again.... Now this isn't an uncommon wireless card, (Linksys WPC54g), there has to be some support out there for it just like there was for the Dell monitor issue....(the Linksys driver disk doesn't have any Linux drivers... period....) [still have the problem that I can't access the NTFS partition from the Fedora load but I can't access the net from anything but the NTFS partition.... Can we say, rock and hard place].... I search around and find that I have to purchase a driverloader from linuxant.com to be able to run my wireless card. [So much for "free" and "open source"]

    So..... Now I have to go back to work to get the eth0 up so I can pay for something to make my card work so that I can begin to play with this thing and dl all the things I need to make it do what I want to do during the time I can spare the most to do it......

    I've had it two days.... and I have had _no_ benefit.... I have had a few "aw shitz"... funnily enough I formatted the drive and installed XP from scratch.... It ran perfectly and I only needed the linksys CD to run up the wireless card. I'm sure that there are many out there that could overcome my problems..... But you know the OS.... I'm a noob.... I know nothing of the file structure etc. etc. and how to access them... I can't even get to my keyfob.... XP shows it to me immediately...... That would have really helped......

    That's why windows will continue to rule..... people who know nothing can make it do what they want it to do.... I understand how the bloody thing works..... but I can't make it work without jumping through hoops even though I have a pretty detailed knowledge of the principles that it works on.....

    PS: I WILL BEAT THIS POS.... IT"S ONLY A COMPUTER!!!!!!
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
    \"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools.\" - Thucydides

  2. #2
    Senior Member nihil's Avatar
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    That's why windows will continue to rule..... people who know nothing can make it do what they want it to do.
    Exactly! it is the GUI bit and compatibility that are the issues. A total beginner can get hold of a Windows box and be productive in a very short time. The same can be said of AppleMacs.

    I have just started experimenting with Linspire (Lindows). It certainly seems to address a lot of the problems that "off the shelf" users have traditionally had with Linux, although I believe that recent distros are rapidly improving their GUIs.

    I also think that there is a vastly larger population of people with a working knowledge of Windows, and not so many for linux. In my local pub, for example there are probably half a dozen or more people who can use windows and have a reasonable knowledge, at least from the user viewpoint. I am afraid that the same cannot be said of *nix, so there is still the factor of the "herd instinct"

    OK, I agree that Linux distros are becoming more resource demanding, presumably because of the enhanced GUIs, but just look at the development of DOS and Windows..........the story is the same.

    It will be interesting to see the effect of Longhorn on the market....................the specs are horrendous

  3. #3
    Senior Member gore's Avatar
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    Linux has to be somewhat harder than Windows. It's only Linux being fair. With all the worms and virii Windows users put up with it would give Linux to much of an advantage if it was the same.

    Besides, when you start learning how Linux runs, it starts to make sence.

    Whoever wrote this doesn't seem to really want to do much but use Windows anwyay, so let them use it.

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    Tiger Shark, I see where you are comming from. A few things though. Granny is not going to have to install windows, it is already done for her. If linux was installed for her, there should be no real differences. My parents can use windows, but if they have any, and I mean any problems, they call me. There are over 100 distributions of linux, probably one of those will work in gui on the laptop.
    Some linux lovers(zealots) want linux to rule the desktop. Others don't care if linux is well received, they just want it to do what it was made for(whatever that might be).
    Windows(dos) has been around longer, so you will know it better. How long has it taken you to learn windows(dos). It will take people awhile to learn linux. Some people will want to learn and maybe alot of people will not.
    I knew nothing of linux and enough about windows to hurt myself, about 2 years ago. I bought Red Hat 7.3 from a store, took it home and 45 minutes later, it was up and running, just like windows. Blind luck, but it was no problem.
    You know, I have said it before and I will say it again, to each his own. Use what you are comfortable with, whether it is windows, linux, macs, unix, etc., whatever.
    Enough babbling.
    And no flames meant.

  5. #5
    Senior Member gore's Avatar
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    Originally posted here by devpon
    Tiger Shark, I see where you are comming from. A few things though. Granny is not going to have to install windows, it is already done for her. If linux was installed for her, there should be no real differences.


    Very true. How many home users do you know that have ever installed an OS?

    they just want it to do what it was made for(whatever that might be).
    It was made to be an OS. It does that well.


    Windows(dos) has been around longer, so you will know it better.
    Actually, if you want to be technical, Linux is based on UNIX, and works almost the same. UNIX has been around... Hmm, 1968 - 2004, 36 years. So people who used UNIX in those days will find Linux easier.

    I'm not trying to kick you in the balls, but it all comes down to what we learned first. Most people started using a computer with Windows or Mac OS, so they will find it easier to use something similar.


    How long has it taken you to learn windows(dos).
    I learned Windows in about 2 months. I had no manuals though either, and sat up each night toying with it until I figured it out. DOS took me about a month. I know DOS well.

    It will take people awhile to learn linux.
    I've been using it a little over a year. I'm pretty good, and can get around with or without X. Then again I don't mind learning it either.


    You know, I have said it before and I will say it again, to each his own. Use what you are comfortable with, whether it is windows, linux, macs, unix, etc., whatever.
    Enough babbling.
    And no flames meant.
    I can agree with that. Personally, I use everything I can.

  6. #6
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    I would suggest that if you gave granny 2 identical laptops with blank HD's, the CD-ROM set to boot and bootable CD's and said put the CD in the slot, turn on the PC and follow the "instructions" she has a far higher chance of having a successful load with Windows simply because the support for almost everything is already built in.

    Whoever wrote this doesn't seem to really want to do much but use Windows anwyay, so let them use it.
    Er, I said right at the top that "I want to use " Linux.... There are clear advantages from my POV.... I've been using Windows for bloody years..... Yes it can still be challenging....

    Most people started using a computer with Windows or Mac OS, so they will find it easier to use something similar
    My first encounter with a computer was back in 1974(?) in school when we used to write programs and send them to Oxford University to have them punch carded and run. I taught myself Assembly on the Z80 chip back in 1982 because the Sinclair Basic, (while being a wonderful programming medium), took up too much space....

    My point and the point of this thread was twofold..... I needed to vent a little.... I am far from a noob with computer technology, I have a damned good understanding of how they work. I have spent many years jumping through hoops to make things work...... So imagine my frustration when things don't work and, (while no-where near as bad), it seems that it is barely easier to get linux functioning properly today than it was 5-6 years ago.

    I will continue to "document" my likes and dislikes, frustrations and "victories" in this thread.... It will be an interesting "diary" and it may help others too..... As I said... It's only a computer, I will beat it..... Into submission if necessary.....
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
    \"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools.\" - Thucydides

  7. #7
    Senior Member Zonewalker's Avatar
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    Well.... Now the problems start..... First, the damn thing won't show me more than 640x480 screen on a nice 15" monitor.... Bummer trying to work on an 8x5 screen
    let me guess - you're using a TFT monitor? I dunno about anyone else but using a TFT monitor (one of the old CRT's I did have was fine) I can't get more than a 800x600 resolution out from half the linux distros I've tried (read Debian, Slack, SuSe). Having said that some distro's (knoppix, vector,Mandrake) work well at 1280x1024 which is what XP uses and is in fact the monitor default. What I find bizarre is that at least two of those distros Debian/knoppix and Slack/vector are based on the same core. Anyway I'm currently happy with the linux distro I've got set up - but similarly I'm also happy with XP.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes

  8. #8
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    Oh happy frustrations......

    Well.... On the bright side I am talking to you from the satellite office using Fedora over the wireless....... It took a while to realize that the silly thing won't work if both interfaces, (eth0, (hardwired 100BaseT0, and eth1, (wireless)), are running at the same time.... (I'm sure it can be done.... but it doesn't do it by default). [My WinXP does this fine... ] It seems like it gets confused as to which interface to use and always uses the wrong one..... <LOL>

    The file system is, (OK "seems"), illogical. Stuff gets placed everywhere. /usr/local/shared or /usr/local/etc or root/bin etc. etc. etc. Packages seem to get just splattered everywhere.... Finding out how to run a package you just installed is a "learning experience".... There are some I got up and running really quick, NMap.... Nessus I got up after some struggling only to find that it won't work any more with an error message saying the address is already in use.... wtf... which address is it talking about???? Kismet simply won't work.... I dunno... I know it's me but c'mon.. It won't run from the shell and it won't run from anywhere else...... It says it will run with my wireless config but i don't know what to put in the config file that is appropriate for the card and no-one out there seems to want to tell anyone what it is.... So much for the extensive support.... [I know, it's a lot like searching the M$ knowledgebase..... A fun thing to do when you're bored but, eventually a fruitless exercise......]

    Now, let's talk slow..... and clunky.... phew... I get bored..... You can't say the hardware is different - it's a dual boot WINXP/Fedora box..... So the hardware is identical. Folders with 1900 files in tale a week to come up - in WinXP they appear in seconds. Boot speed is horrible, especially if it can't find a network, what's with that? Can't it tell the cable isn't plugged in? Shutdown..... Oh Yawn..... Shut it down, fetch coffee come back the bloody thing is still switched on..... Ahhhhh.... it doesn't know power management.... how quaint..... how old-fashioned..... WinXP is faster than when using Gnome or whatever we are using.... No doubt about it.....

    I know..... I'm a noob here..... Not only that I'm a noob fixed in other ways..... But I started this thread to "diary" the differences and show what I find good and bad about linux..... I have to say that, to date, I'm not overly impressed.... Slow, clunky, unprofessional, unintuitive, incomplete support for devices are all observations that are fair at this point..... As to granny being able to ever use it...... Dream on..... I have a clue about the system, (computer, devices, network etc.), I can see why things aren't working and therefore the direction to go to find a solution.....

    Having said all this.... I'm sending this message, rebooting to XP and I'll reply from there to the abuse I will surely receive..... 'Cos, I need to VPN into work while I type here and I'm not sure where to start with that in fedora.....
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
    \"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools.\" - Thucydides

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    Seems like you have your hands full. All I will say is good luck

  10. #10
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    Devpon: Don't get me entirely wrong... It's a computer, I'm having fun "digging" but my experience is a classic example of why Linux is a long, long way from being a commercially viable alternative to Windows......

    I have to admit one thing though that I forgot last night.... It has a ton more games than Windows, it has great support for playing music CD's, chatting online, etc. Take that for what you will... To me it's an indication of the priorities of some of the people developing apps for it....

    Todays fun and games will begin with an attempt to create a pptp tunnel through my firewall first over the eth0, (hard wire), then..... should we be able to manage it, we are going for the big one.... The wireless pptp tunnel from the satellite office on a friday night.....
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
    \"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools.\" - Thucydides

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