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Thread: Longhorn - A review into the future of computing

  1. #21
    Be merely glad they are released period and not ignored, you know?
    Oh believe me pooh i'm happy that they do infact release patches etc etc.
    But if your like me and like to tinker with things that shouldn't be tinkered with then you'd fine yourself having to re-install at least 2 times a day, so it can get a little big annoying if your find yourself at he MicroSoft update centre more times then you are doing anything else.
    I mean no sooner do you install all the patches available, but once you install some other program and check back at the Ms website you gotta install another patch because that program opens up another hole so to speak.

    Well that's just my opinion, and i'm not trying to get into a Debate about anything but this is just how i feel.

    cheers
    |front2back|

  2. #22
    Super Moderator: GMT Zone nihil's Avatar
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    Hi .:front~

    I use the MS cumulative update CD as a start. I recall that they provide a facility for Admins who need to upgrade lots of boxes..............have you tried creating a CD using that?

    just a thought?
    If you cannot do someone any good: don't do them any harm....
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  3. #23
    No, you guys are missing my entire point It isn't a matter of preference, my questions was:

    "What can the command line do that the GUI can't?"

    I am certainly not attacking preferences, but trying to make a point. Whois, delphi code editing, nmap, dig, traceroute, c programming, all can be done in the gui. I'm not saying the gui is the right way for -everyone-, I'm merely saying that the gui can.

    But if your like me and like to tinker with things that shouldn't be tinkered with then you'd fine yourself having to re-install at least 2 times a day, so it can get a little big annoying if your find yourself at he MicroSoft update centre more times then you are doing anything else.
    That still sounds like every other OS. If I have to reinstall slackware, I still have to do a slapt-get --update && slapt-get --upgrade. If I reinstalled fedora it's apt-get, if I reinstall gentoo it's emerge -Ud world && emerge -Ud system.

    No matter how much you like to tinker, each and every OS is going to require upgrades. That is a fact that can not be overlooked.

  4. #24
    I know that i carn't be over looked Pooh, but what i'm trying to get at is that with so much time prior to the release of this product i carn't see why they wouldn't be able to find most holes in it and pre-patch them up, that way when it is releases, idiots like myself who like to screw with things that shouldn't be screwed with won't have to spend most of there time Downloading patches over and over again..

    And i also know that you have to perform updates for most os these days and i understand that it's gonna continue like this for a long long time..

    f2b:.

  5. #25
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    idiots like myself who like to screw with things that shouldn't be screwed with
    But windows is targeted at people who don't do that =p
    Is there a sum of an inifinite geometric series? Well, that all depends on what you consider a negligible amount.

  6. #26
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    Originally posted here by pooh sun tzu
    No, you guys are missing my entire point It isn't a matter of preference, my questions was:

    "What can the command line do that the GUI can't?"

    I am certainly not attacking preferences, but trying to make a point. Whois, delphi code editing, nmap, dig, traceroute, c programming, all can be done in the gui. I'm not saying the gui is the right way for -everyone-, I'm merely saying that the gui can.



    That still sounds like every other OS. If I have to reinstall slackware, I still have to do a slapt-get --update && slapt-get --upgrade. If I reinstalled fedora it's apt-get, if I reinstall gentoo it's emerge -Ud world && emerge -Ud system.

    No matter how much you like to tinker, each and every OS is going to require upgrades. That is a fact that can not be overlooked.
    Hey Hey,

    Now I'm not trying to start a fight here Pooh because I respect what you say, as far as what can the command line do that the gui can't... I think you've been given some good ones already.... python and perl scripts, FlamingRain asked a good one with awk. programs like nmap have a GUI... but they aren't a GUI.... for C programming.. yes you could code a GUI into your program, but what if you want to write small console apps? The fact is that if you are a hardcore computer user, like most of the people on this site... you couldn't function in your daily life without a command line.

    As to the update parts, you are most definately right... every system has to be updated, however it's the simplicity of the update system that get's to me. With MS, unless you go with automatic updates, you end up having to browse to a website and going through a "scan" process. The only linux that I can think of with a similar system is SuSE with YaST Online Updates. And there's even a small command line update system for that, so that you can script it, or run it with ease. With Debian, Slack, any other system.... I type.. what 10... maybe 15 characters and it does the updating, that's a lot simpiler than going to a website, selecting updates and installing them. Sure, I could use automatic updates but then I've got another service running in the background eating up more memory. I use Windows on a daily basis, so I'm not bashing here, but their method of providing updates is, in my opinion, a very poor implementation. I realize it's for the computer illiterate so they can still have updated computers... but they should provide us with nice, convenient, scriptable way of doing updates.

    Peace,
    HT
    IT Blog: .:Computer Defense:.
    PnCHd (Pronounced Pinched): Acronym - Point 'n Click Hacked. As in: "That website was pinched" or "The skiddie pinched my computer because I forgot to patch".

  7. #27
    I agree with everything you said, and respect your positions, all of you Except one thing:

    The fact is that if you are a hardcore computer user, like most of the people on this site... you couldn't function in your daily life without a command line.
    That simply isn't true. If I prefer the gui to a command line, and can accomplish the exact same things through different means, then it is similar to the OS arguments I bring. As long as an admin knows how to use the gui/command line to its fullest degree, then both can be made equal. So it isn't a matter of preference for this part, but a matter of knowledge and time spent learning how to do things both ways.

    great conversation and ideas guys. keep it up!

  8. #28
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    Originally posted here by pooh sun tzu
    I agree with everything you said, and respect your positions, all of you Except one thing:



    That simply isn't true. If I prefer the gui to a command line, and can accomplish the exact same things through different means, then it is similar to the OS arguments I bring. As long as an admin knows how to use the gui/command line to its fullest degree, then both can be made equal. So it isn't a matter of preference for this part, but a matter of knowledge and time spent learning how to do things both ways.

    great conversation and ideas guys. keep it up!
    Hey Hey,

    I'm going to disagree with this... GUI and command line will never be made equal, they can't be. The speed difference alone is what breaks the equality. I run my computer with a command line open, regardless of what I'm doing... it's always there... I know several people who are the same way, if it's not... it's only a click away. People type faster, than they can use a mouse, especially when there are check boxes, or textboxes that you have to type in involved. If you say you are faster with a mouse, than a keyboard.... then there's something wrong with your typing skills. So take a few comparable tasks.

    Whois a domain name.

    CLI: Open CLI (assuming it isn't open) and type whois example.com
    GUI: Open Sam Spade (or other software), selct the whois tab, click on textbox, type example.com, click go button.

    While there isn't much difference here, there's one or two additional gestures required. Compare the fact that the command line is probably the fastest loading application in Windows, and you have a slight difference, although at this point it's negligible.

    Immediately after we wish to ping the domain.

    CLI: type ping example.com
    GUI: Change tabs, or launch a new application, select the appropriate field and type example.com, then click the go button.

    The main difference here is that I didn't have to touch my mouse between tasks... which is a huge speed increase. I realize that you could do it without the mouse as well, however you'd have to sit and tab to the correct places...etc.

    Now we want to scan the domain using nmap (No Ping, Syn Scan, OS Detection)

    CLI: I type nmap -sS -P0 -O example.com
    GUI: You open the nmap GUI, type example.com, go to the pull down menu to select Syn Scan, check the don't ping checkbox and then change tabs to select the OS detection checkbox.

    Now we want to run some simple C code.
    CLI: I type the name of the executable in my window that's already open.
    GUI: You browse to the code and double click. The window pops up and then disappears. What's that? It's command line code... So now you have to go find the source (if it's available) and add a system("PAUSE") line (assuming PAUSE is available since you have no command line why would you still want the pause app).. you recompile the code, and double click, now it waits open when it's done and you find you need arugments. So you create a shortcut, edit the properties, add the arguments to the end of the shortcut, click ok and run it.. now it displays the result and waits for me to press enter before exiting.

    See where I'm going? When you are getting paid by the hour your company doesn't want you wasting an extra 10 minutes here, 5 minutes here... it may seem insignificant per task, but those times all add up.

    What if we want to reset our TCP/IP settings now and then view the log? (last example)

    CLI: type netsh interface ip reset c:\reset.log, then I simply type c:\reset.log and it opens for me in notepad, want me to stick to CLI? then I type edit c:\reset.log
    GUI: Go to start, run, type netsh interface ip reset c:\reset.log (or go search out and download WinsockFix/WinsockXPFix). Then browse to c:\ (My Computer --> C: --> Double Click the log.... Start --> Run --> C: --> Double Click the log... Start --> Rung c:\reset.log)

    Again my process is faster.... I'm not saying the GUI is useless, it has many purposes... but it also has a time and a place and when time is money, you can't waste those few extra minutes... even seconds on those tasks like I said they all add up. That alone means the CLI and GUI will never be equal.

    Peace,
    HT

    [edit]
    One last thought... Care to show me where I can gather all the information that ipconfig /all provides. I don't want mulitple sources either.. I want once place, that's as quick and easy to access as ipconfig is.... How about the CLI ftp?... show me something as quick and simple as that.


    BTW... you said you'd show us comparable features for all of them... yet you haven't provide a single app for any of the ones listed in any post...

    [/edit]
    IT Blog: .:Computer Defense:.
    PnCHd (Pronounced Pinched): Acronym - Point 'n Click Hacked. As in: "That website was pinched" or "The skiddie pinched my computer because I forgot to patch".

  9. #29
    If you say you are faster with a mouse, than a keyboard.... then there's something wrong with your typing skills.
    No, as a GUI was never meant to be mouse alone. Shortcut keys + mouse + tab + enter + space + a billion other keys meant for specific functions in a gui are left out in all of your examples. I can use a keyboard as fast as a mouse, and vice versa. But don't ever think a gui is limited to the mouse.

    yet you haven't provide a single app for any of the ones listed in any post...
    Getting a bit edgy are we? The reason why I have limited the responces I give is because regardless of what I say and the examples I give, the end result will be the same. You won't have budged, I won't have budged, and both sides will be as stubborn as they started out. We both know this, and know how futile continuing this is. That is why I am not going to give examples. Because I respect everyone who has posted here too much to let this erupt into a flame war about examples and errors and the like

    Does this mean I couldn't find examples and programs to take it's place? No, not at all. I merely can already see where this would end.

    This is going to turn into a flame war, and I want it stopped now before things get worse.

  10. #30
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    Hey Hey,

    I don't see this as a flame war, just a difference of opinions... I'm more than willing to budge if presented with enough information. I don't see a single thing said so far that was starting a flame-war... You presented a challenge, we came forward and you never answered.... it's not flaming... we're still discussing things here.. and awaiting your response... You've declined to answer.. and that's your option.. but don't use flaming as your reason for backing out... there's no flaming going on here.... Anyways... you've left me an offer to communicate by other means, and I've left you a PM with my AIM information.... I await contact from you.... I will also make the log of our conversation available to anyone interested in seeing the results (assuming pooh gives his permission)...

    Anyways.... I await your message.

    Peace,
    HT
    IT Blog: .:Computer Defense:.
    PnCHd (Pronounced Pinched): Acronym - Point 'n Click Hacked. As in: "That website was pinched" or "The skiddie pinched my computer because I forgot to patch".

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