A thought about our attitude to lUsers
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 26

Thread: A thought about our attitude to lUsers

  1. #1
    The Doctor Und3ertak3r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    2,743

    A thought about our attitude to lUsers

    This link was sent to me today.. and it has provided food for thought. Especially as I was tought to look to "Being a Problem Solver, and not play the Blame Game"

    i am posting this as food for thought .. I do not agree with the full article

    http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20040311.html

    Well, I have a word for these contemptuous techies: Save your energy for solving the problem instead of blaming its victims. Mainstream users shouldn't have to be IT experts to operate their computers.
    My thought is the artical writter is asking for a no Brainer solution for users.. Ok that is fine..
    BUT when you own a car.. does it automaticly Fuel and Oil itself?
    and will it Stop at red lights and avoid errent traffic on the road? and tell you that the left you just made should have been right.....NO.. (ok some smart a$$ will be able to say yes on the last one)

    The driver has some responsabilities.. so it is with computer users.

    But you will find that given to Joe or Jane Average.. this artical will strike a positive cord.. and when dealing with these people do we try to assert our Nerdish authority.. or are we looking for a simpler solution for that person..

    Just a few thoughts..

    "Oh Gee a message for me, with photo's of our meeting... dunno who it is .. I'll open the attachment.. could be some good pron...drool drool"


    Cheers
    "Consumer technology now exceeds the average persons ability to comprehend how to use it..give up hope of them being able to understand how it works." - Me http://www.cybercrypt.co.nr

  2. #2
    Macht Nicht Aus moxnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Huson Mt.
    Posts
    1,752
    This guy seems to just want to make the problem even bigger and badder.
    Instead of lectures, consumers need Microsoft to build into Windows an effective, free, constantly updated security service requiring little or no user intervention. This service would fend off all kinds of threats and invasions of privacy, including viruses and spyware, without getting all tangled up in academic distinctions.
    I guess he wants a car that drives itself, gets its own gas and oil, does all its own maintainence, and of course is free to him. (and all from Microsoft....lol)
    Doesn't want much does he.
    \"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Champagne in one hand - strawberries in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming WOO HOO - What a Ride!\"
    Author Unknown

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    291
    before delving into this one, how many of you have actually sat down and trained your users? beyond the 5 minute "this is outlook, heres your keyboard, I'm going to assume you know what your doing"

    and even more inevitable, how many of you work at a place where senior management gives you the ability to train those users, where management takes a proactive stand towards proper methodology...

    eh I cant stand users in the same sense, but you do need to realize that most often the users themselves are not the problem, it's the lack of training. people dont expect us to know even the basics about forklift operation why do we think they should all have the basics? After all, you do need to carry a license to drive a car, which you pass a test to get proving you know the "basics", how many of your users have a "Luser permit"

    just throwing another log on the fire

    as far as the article goes, it could happen... but isnt this just another cry for yet another service we'll take for granted untill it nips us in the rear?? The idea of a 1 step solve all solution in the technology isnt going to cut it, the solution is in how we utilize the technology now, not what comes out next week.... perhaps the idea of a user liscense isnt such a bad one eh.....
    ~THEJRC~
    I\'ll preach my pessimism right out loud to anyone that listens!
    I\'m not afraid to be alive.... I\'m afraid to be alone.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    245
    This kind of attitude is at the heart of the whole problem with security in the Windows world to begin with. Users aren't accustomed to having to ever do anything for the computer.

    They (computers) are not an autonomous being sent by the god's to be man's endentured servant awaiting our every desire. It's a bunch of sand and conductive metal running instructions that are guranteed to be flawed in some way or another.

    People should get used to the idea of continuing to have to run security updates on their machines and make their own breakfast for the foreseeable future....

    -- spurious
    Get OpenSolaris http://www.opensolaris.org/

  5. #5
    Senior Member nihil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    United Kingdom: Bridlington
    Posts
    17,190
    Hi Undies

    You answer is:

    £$£$£$£$£$£$£$£$££$

    €?......................

    before delving into this one, how many of you have actually sat down and trained your users? beyond the 5 minute "this is outlook, heres your keyboard, I'm going to assume you know what your doing"
    A very good point, and the answer is "yes!" If you have been responsible for development AND apps support, and manage your team you would know that it makes sense? I used to monitor time spent by my team.............once support got beyond 25% it was time to prepare a training session (or dig one out) and talk the user managers into letting you run a training course?

    MCMR was the motto.............. "My Customer, My Responsibility"..........

    ACK!..........I really miss the dragons............

    I am feeling old....................she will probably report me?

  6. #6
    The Doctor Und3ertak3r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    2,743
    yes nihil, good ole LSD

    with margins as low as 5% on retail pc's (and lower), the retailer wont be helping out with the training of the user.. and corporate enviroments fix is to lock the systems down to the point that the user can't get into trouble (hehe they hope)

    Too many 10 year old trainers, of 30+ yr old users, and not forgetting Bill the butcher who uses a computer at work, he knows..

    I saw that artical as a reason to think about HOW I was approaching my end of the problem..

    As things change.. my work and time will change..

    HEre is food for thought..

    nVidia are now building Firewalls.. not the external boxes.. but a new chipset that will be like the NorthBridg chip memcontroller/AGP/Firewall in one.. there ya go a problem solved at the hardware level.. hmm not realy.. Bill the butcher may accidently disable that in BIOS thinking that is why the onboard video won't work.. beyond 800x600.. or because the cpu is over heating.. All problems are software arent they..

    Cheers
    "Consumer technology now exceeds the average persons ability to comprehend how to use it..give up hope of them being able to understand how it works." - Me http://www.cybercrypt.co.nr

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    442
    We train users.

    One a month there is a mandatory session that the users must attend at least once a year, or their account expires. We teach them the basic concepts of the computer, how to use it, what the icons are, what their network drives are, what the antivirus and firewall do, et cetera. We teach them what the computer does and the basics of how it does it. We do however, have in-line virus scanners and firewalls 'on the borders', along with Diskeeper software to push defrags. Laptops can only connect to the wifi network with the WEP key which we hardly ever give out unless really necessary, and almost every single computer already has the removable drives removed. It would be hard for our users to sabotage us. The proxy server is transparent and it is running the web filter software and tracking software. VNC is used for remote administration, with VNC and the web tracking stuff, we have a good fear factor in place on the users, just them knowing that I can read their e-mail stops them from trying to check hotmail or yahoo for the most part, neither of which work by the way. When we 'take control' of their mouse and keyboard with VNC too they always think that is funny, but we also remind them that we can check on them silently and always see what they are doing.

    So I guess we already gas and oil the |users computers for them, but as long as I keep on getting paid to do it, hell I won't complain. Just like the guy at the full-service station has a job to pump my gas and change my oil. But I still have to drive way over there, damn, I need to change that, maybe he can gas and oil up my car in my garage, that sounds good, I think I will ask him that next time, hmmmmm

  8. #8
    PHP/PostgreSQL guy
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    1,164
    My two cents:

    Education and the sharing of knowledge is key. No doubt about that and yes, myself and others are inherently to blame when we show up and say "Here's Outlook, here's your keyboard, you're good to go". That's why I'm trying to take a more proactive role and show people how things work, what a correct answer to their question may be, etc.

    Here are the problems with that kind of attitude:

    1: The first kind of user isn't going to care about knowing more and will brush off anything given with lines like "I don't need to know any of that garbage" or "I don't care to know anything more", etc. These are the worst, in my book, because they bring down what I consider a very good career. They ridicule the IT staff on hand (don't ever say 'Wow, that's a first' or something because they'll respond with a smartass comment like "Oh aren't you supposed to know everything? What do we pay you for?"), don't do anything you tell them to (or do it with the utmost aggravation and frustration shown), things like that. These are the kind who I don't give two rats asses about.

    2: The second kind of user is one who wants to learn and wants to know more about how they can be more productive and spending 10 minutes with them gives them the world because finally they have someone who can answer their questions. I have no problems with these people, as they seem to blame their computer problems on themselves when it may or may not be the case. Helping them is a great thing because they appreciate it 100x over and write things down, try to remember what you tell them...no issues there.

    The above two are the most prevalent that I know of. With the first kind, I'm forced to smile, nod my head yes, and deal with some slackass jackoff who's downing me, my career, and the computer they ****ed up to begin with because they thought they knew what they were doing. I hate dealing with them. They've made up their minds about it and I'm making up mine. With the second kind, I don't mind helping out but my knowledge IS worth money and they get X amount of time for free. Not bad untill the same person is hogging my time for every little thing. This is the problem when someone realizes they have a fountain of knowledge to pull from.

    Well, I have a word for these contemptuous techies: Save your energy for solving the problem instead of blaming its victims. Mainstream users shouldn't have to be IT experts to operate their computers.
    And I have a word for users like yourself. We can be contemptuous because chances are, half the problems are recurring issues that've been explained ten times over (like DO NOT OPEN ATTACHMENTS UNTIL YOU ARE SURE) to the same dumbass idiot who refuses to take lessons from someone 20 years their younger because of pride. Show me a little respect and I'll show you some. Plain and simple, just like everywhere else.

    I don't mean the kinds of software-security suites now available -- bundles of individual programs. I'm talking about a truly unified, seamless service, controlled and maintained over the Internet, that would take on the whole problem.
    This guy really has no idea what he just asked for. I love it when non-programming types (like sales and marketing people) throw out something that's so simple in nature, but underlying work is amazingly detailed and horribly complex. And as far as 'controlled and maintened over the Internet', forget that. That's called "Big Brother".
    We the willing, led by the unknowing, have been doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much with so little for so long that we are now qualified to do just about anything with almost nothing.

  9. #9
    Some Assembly Required ShagDevil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    718
    This guy really has no idea what he just asked for. I love it when non-programming types (like sales and marketing people) throw out something that's so simple in nature, but underlying work is amazingly detailed and horribly complex
    Vorlin, I couldn't agree with you more. Being an ex-programmer, I know that convenience is one of the hardest things to code.

    The Washington Post declared Mr. Mossberg "one of the most powerful men in the high-tech world
    Yet, this guy has nothing even remotely close to any kind of techincal degree or certification.
    he graduated from Brandeis University and the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism
    In May of 2001, he received an honorary Doctorate of Laws from the University of Rhode Island
    Ok, so the guy has no technical degree. big deal. There's lots of people without technical degrees who are good with computers. Maybe he's one of those people that just knows computers and picks things up on the 'fly'. And maybe, just maybe, the guy is so good, he can code an entire program while he's watching re-runs of Laverne & Shirley and giving his dog a bath.
    Then I read this:
    Instead of lectures, consumers need Microsoft to build into Windows an effective, free, constantly updated security service requiring little or no user intervention. This service would fend off all kinds of threats and invasions of privacy, including viruses and spyware, without getting all tangled up in academic distinctions
    Yes, Mr. Mossberg, and I recently emailed Mr.Coffee and told them that I'd like to see a new coffee maker that can not only make my coffee for me but, also do my laundry, wash my car, walk my dog, answer the phone, pay my bills, cut my toe nails, and make waffles.

    I just noticed that I offered no solutions nor ideas towards the matter at hand. I apologize for my rant.
    It seems Mr. Mossberg would like to make computer security and users mutually exclusive. Fact is, you can't. I think educating your users is an integral part of computer security. Now, I know this may seem odd but I actually like my users to inadvertantly make mistakes such as downloading viruses, spyware, adware, and trojans. It makes it easier for me to demonstrate the importance of why they should be cautious about their online activity. I let them see the entire cleaning process while I do it. Not only do they think it's "neat" as they put it but, I make them aware of the effort that's put forth in order to maintain a clean network. I don't alienate myself from my users, instead I make them part of the ongoing process. I am however lucky in the fact that my users are genuinely concerned about the health of the network and for that, I am grateful.
    I guess my point is simple. educating your users is much more important than an end-all solution that Mr. Grossberg is looking for.

    The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his - George Patton

  10. #10
    AO übergeek phishphreek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    4,325
    I find it kind of funny that you mention this...

    I just covered this article and a follow up article regarding this in an oral presentation just a few months back...

    I'll have to try to find the notecards I used along with the "protect yourself online" handouts that I passed out.

    Take a look at Tim Mullen's article...

    http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/236

    I side with Mullen...

    I've looked high and low to references from security people calling for the end user to be an IT expert to use their system, and I couldn't find one. You don't have to be a master chef in order to cook meats properly. You don't have to be a master mechanic to drive a car, nor do you have to be a NASCAR driver in order to buckle up and not drink and drive.

    And you don't have to be a computer expert to load AV software and install a firewall.
    Quitmzilla is a firefox extension that gives you stats on how long you have quit smoking, how much money you\'ve saved, how much you haven\'t smoked and recent milestones. Very helpful for people who quit smoking and used to smoke at their computers... Helps out with the urges.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •