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Thread: 0Wn3d In 17 Minutes

  1. #31
    there is no learning curve if you are introducing a user to computers through linux from the star
    You can't be serious right?

    Why can't I view Flash? I have to install it? What is the command line? Forget it, okay how about mp3's, how can I listen to those? mount the cdrom? What's mount? Why do I have to use the command line? What's the command again? Forget it, let's just try to make an email. imap and smtp? I don't know, I just use hotmail. Okay, why when I browse to hotmail and click the link to view something, it doesn't work? Popup blocking? Well how do I turn it off for this? How about a break. Let's play some games instead. Can I install my Counter Strike? No? What do you mean wine? I have to set it up? No, do it for me. How about minesweeper? Forget it, I just want to browse the web. Mozilla, Firefox, Epiphany, and Netscape? Why do I have so many browsers? No, I don't want to know that I only need one. Why are there four if I only need one ?

    Teaching a new user Linux is not a walk in the park, for beyond obvious reasons.

  2. #32
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    Pooh, I recognise what you are saying in your last post and agree with the majority of it, but there are some parts that seem incorrect to me. bludgeon (in his last post) was talking about a user who had absolutely no experience with computers. Now obviously his comment about no learning curve is ludicrous (perhaps especially so in the case that he provided), but I believe that what he was trying to say was that there was no learning curve going from windows to linux because the user did not have experience with either. Anyway...that's beside the point I was making.

    You talked about the user not understanding why they couldn't view flash...in the example that bludgeon was talking about, this would not have been a problem: the user would not know anything about flash .

    "I just use hotmail"?? How is a user who is completely new to computers going to know anything about hotmail (or at least, how are they going to know that they just use hotmail).

    You were right in saying that there is a learning curve, but bludgeon was trying to say that if the user was completely new to computers, they would not know anything else, and therefore would not find it more or less difficult to use windows or linux. I'm not sure that his comment is valid, but I believe that he was perfectly in the right to be very serious.

    ac

  3. #33
    AO Security for Non-Geeks tonybradley's Avatar
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    You talked about the user not understanding why they couldn't view flash...in the example that bludgeon was talking about, this would not have been a problem: the user would not know anything about flash.

    "I just use hotmail"?? How is a user who is completely new to computers going to know anything about hotmail (or at least, how are they going to know that they just use hotmail)..
    I agree partially. Someone who is COMPLETELY new to computers would not know what Hotmail was per se. However, it would take the average person less than an hour of Web surfing to stumble upon a site that required Flash or Shockwave or Quicktime or something in order to do what they wanted- so that would still be in the learning curve.

    Plus, I simply think that it is virtually impossible to find someone who has NEVER experienced Windows. Between school, work, friends, family etc. I don't think you can make it to age 10 without having been indoctrinated to at least some minute degree with Windows and the Microsoft conventions for how things should be done.

  4. #34
    Plus, I simply think that it is virtually impossible to find someone who has NEVER experienced Windows. Between school, work, friends, family etc. I don't think you can make it to age 10 without having been indoctrinated to at least some minute degree with Windows and the Microsoft conventions for how things should be done.
    You'd be amazed. My last semester of college, one of my MIS professors told me about how amazed she was with the ignorance of one of her students. He was home schooled, and evidently so sheltered that he came into college not even knowing what a computer does. Despite putting forth a ton of effort, he failed his fundamentals class, which is basically the typical "and this is how you use a computer" intro course. He had a hard time learning how to use a floppy!

    That totally blew my mind. But, evidently, such people do exist!

    Of course, I do live in Arkansas...

  5. #35
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    Originally posted here by pooh sun tzu
    You can't be serious right?
    Indeed I am. You hit it on the head with the "set it up for me" comment, though.

    Since I've moved to mexico, I've discovered that there are people who don't have a clue about what a computer is. I have a friend that can't even double click, it's almost....funny.

  6. #36
    edit I take everything I just said back. The entire counter argument and quotes. Instead of battling this, I'll make you an offer. Try your theory out. Take someone who has -never- used a computer before and give them Linux. See if it is easier to teach than Windows, and mind you remember not to teach too much because then you are doing nothing more than acting like a google.
    You hit it on the head with the "set it up for me" comment, though.
    Case in point. Don't do it for them. Show them the very very basics of computing, and then see if they can figure it out.

    Because I've done this before. I've seen what happens and how often my phone rings for support afterwards. I've seen redhat and slackware boxes become wide open security holes because of this, and it isn't pretty. Give it a try and see the differences. Because the speed in which a person can learn the Windows interface by merely reading what is on the screen has always (in nothing more than my experience with others) proven to be faster and more efficient.

    I guess what I'm waiting for/expecting is for you to say "Linux is more secure" so I can begin another 5-6 page writeup on how you can secure 2k/XP beyond OBSD levels. Why? Because I can smell that is what you are trying to say without saying it.

  7. #37
    AO BOFH: Luser Abuser BModeratorFH gore's Avatar
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    Just a quick add in:

    I installed SUSE on my Mom's computer and she used it fine for a few weeks. The only reason I had to take it off was because an application she uses is only for Windows. And in fact ONLY for Windows 98 and 2000.

    It's some crap peice of software she uses for work. It was very easy for me the admin of this home LAN, as I didn't even have to get up when she had a problem. I had SSH turned on, so I just logged in and helped when needed.

    SUSE has Flash already installed, so I didn't have to get that or Java, SUSE has both already, as well as support for watching movies in a web browser like IE does.

    Updates were simple, as YAST2 can be used over a LAN or even the internet, so I just loaded YAST over on my screen, did what I needed to, and that was it. If needed, I rebooted it from my room too.

    This was very easy for me as the Admin / BOFH, and that's one reason I installed Linux on my Cousin's box.

    My Cousin has NO computer skills. He doesn't know anything. He runs Linux. Usually either Fedora or SUSE, and I show him how to update, launch a browser for his email and porn sessions, and how to talk on AIM. That's all he really does. I take care of updates when he misses them, and I do everything remotely so I don't have to go to his house.

    If he had XP for example, I'd have to show him how to update, which he has had XP before, he had me take it off, and I was glad to because the dumb ass has a Mom who opens any email sent to her, and the thing was infected worse than a cheap crack whore, so I put Linux on, and now I don't have top teach him to use Anti Virii, or update it, or set up a firewall, or show him when the firewall says to allow an application access to the internet, if he shoud or now. All of that is taken care of, and it's way easier on me.

    This is of course me, not you, you may know Windows better. I don't. I've yet to ever set up a Windows server, but I have set up Linux and used it for a server a lot.

    He's doing fine with it, and of course, if he pisses me off, rm -rf / works well. Then I can charge him to fix it again.

    This is easy for me.

    Now, if I was to start being the admin for a Windows Network, I wouldn't be as good, it would cost the company more because they would be sedning me out for training. I've never ran a Windows only network, or server, and don't want to.
    Kill the lights, let the candles burn behind the pumpkins’ mischievous grins, and let the skeletons dance. For one thing is certain, The Misfits have returned and once again everyday is Halloween.The Misfits FreeBSD
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  8. #38
    AO Ancient: Team Leader
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    I'm with Pooh

    The learning curve for someone who has never experienced electricity......

    NEWSFLASH There are people who neither need, want or have seen the "benefits" of electricity in this world.....

    .... is _exactly_ the same for *nix as it is for WinX..... and there are many who will never understand why they would need a computer....

    We here are "the chosen ones"..... Sometimes I think that it is such a bloody shame..... But it's he way it is.....
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
    \"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools.\" - Thucydides

  9. #39
    Gore, the big difference there is that you showed him. You even did updates and configurations for him. This only provesmy point.

    Be it windows or linux, you can teach anyone how to do just about anything. You can do anything for them as well. But we can't confuse "linux is simpler" with "I taught him how to do things in linux, just like I could have with windows".

    That's the primary difference, when we want to say "learning windows is harder than linux" instead of what we are really saying "We are teaching them how to use the OS we know the best". So lets not play word games Anyone can teach and OS they know to others and make it seem simple. But turn off your phone, have them figure out the OS through themselves, and the entire world changes on perception of simplicity through use and learning.

  10. #40
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    ...Why not just set up the computer behind an already secure network?

    There. Problem solved. Oh, and don't run Windows? *smirk*

    [P.S. - Why do we assume every user on the internet is a goddamn newbie? Yes, there are tons of people who don't know their own ass from the kernel, but you have to understand that everybody is know security-concious - with Norton and McAfee and hacking propoganda everywhere, there is ultra-user-friendly applications that will prevent attacks for at least the first 20 days, if not the first 20 minutes.]
    ...This Space For Rent.

    -[WebCarnage]

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