Why I don't recommend Firefox - Page 3
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Thread: Why I don't recommend Firefox

  1. #21
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    Talking Warning, long post...

    All of this is just MHO, so bear with me. It irritates me why "some" "don't recommend" brand X.

    It doesnít entirely act like a native application on all platforms.
    Native compared to what? What problems are encountered due to this "issue"?

    Popup blocking is sometimes over-aggressive. Popups launched from a positive user action (like clicking a link) should ALWAYS work. This is a tough one to get right, I know. And donít tell me about the whitelist. The average user isnít going to add lots of entries to the whitelist.
    And IE doesn't have a popup blocker at all. In fact, IE hasn't had anything close to a major overhaul in over 2 years (or something like that, I don't track it). It's an effort to prevent the NINE MILLION GAZILLION BILLION TRILLION popups that any random user may encounter because they go to thousands of sites that either A: have spyware that starts the popup chain or B: have lots of window.open() or other javascript.

    No ďGoĒ buttons next to the address bar and search bar by default. Many, many users need a button to click. They donít know that just hitting enter will do the trick. The Address bar and search fields are also too similar. ďWhy do I have two fields and shich one do I type Ďyahoo.comí into so I can start using the Internet?Ē Yes, I know you can add the button, but if I need a button, thereís no way Iím going to be able to figure out how to do THAT.
    Here's an inherent problem; user stupidity. MS has created a desktop that's point-and-click and that's fine except that 99% of the users out there are ignorant, uneducated, unwilling to learn, and apathetic to the fact that computers are no longer "for the rich" and you can get an decent eMachine now at Best Buy for 500 bucks. As EASY as it is now for them to become a LITTLE more intelligent in their usage of the computer, they're not doing it. Instead, they fall back on the dumbass comments like "Why is my computer so slow?" or "My internet keeps crashing.". Please, get off the "every user needs a nice point and click interface" bandwagon. I'm GLAD Firefox is more technical than other programs. I'm GLAD you have the ability to add extensions and themes, etc... Your average user, who can't for the life of them, can't add an extension but they can sure as hell download the smily face pack for YIM/MSN/AIM/etc and they can send email with forwards and pictures from their neato digital camera better than we ever will...??? WTF? Yeah, it's called selective learning. I guess if it's not fun, they don't want to learn?

    The GO button is not needed. If they can't associate the enter key with pushing a "Go" button which does the same thing, then they don't need to be behind the keyboard.

    The launch problem in Windows ME needs to be solved. Yes, Windows ME sucks, but lots of people use it, and getting an error message everytime they click a URL shortcut in the OS is bad. Error messages are scary to the average user.
    If people are STILL using the worst OS MS ever produced, that's a sign they should be shot. Period. I'd recommend 95 unpatched before I ever recommend ME. Mistake Edition, Memory Eater, whatever you want to call it... If I were on the developing staff and had any say-so in a product's development, I'd make sure there wasn't any builds for ME or 95...they're WAY outclassed now that XP is so prevalent.

    Firefox right now is very good for an experienced net user, but is not at all ready for the average person. If you plan on targeting the general public, you need to understand the general public.
    No amount of education or ease-of-use or whatever will prepare your average user for anything that doesn't already come on a default Windows installation. I've already mentioned they are selective in their "learning". Why does the 7 year old have no problems but the wife completely loses it at times? Because the kid's trying to learn all he/she can and the older person simply won't. "It's too hard" or "I can't do this" or "I just want to click a button". I cater to someone's learning and want to be a better "end-user", never to their being more stupid than most outdoor patio furniture.

    Most average users won't ever even land on www.mozilla.com/products/firefox so it's not an issue of "understanding" the general public. Those who want a better product will find them. The rest will live in a world of spyware-ridden, popups-everywhere, slow-ass performance, and crawling internet...I have no sympathy for them.

    Most Web users donít know what a browser is. That blue E they click on the desktop isnít a browser, itís ďThe Internet.Ē Or maybe itís ďYahooĒ if thatís what their home page is set to. Tell them to download a new browser and they donít understand what you mean. I put Firefox on my wifeís computer and removed the IE link. She asked why she didnít have My Yahoo on the computer anymore. My wifeís not stupid ó to her the IE logo is how she got to the Web. Without that, she didnít know how to get to My Yahoo.

    Youíd be shocked how many people donít understand what a URL is and what the address bar is for. When they need to go to a site, they close the browser, re-open it so they get the MSN or Yahoo home page, and enter the URL into the search box. How about integrating the address bar and the search field? If what I entered isnít a URL, pass it to Google.
    See above about user stupidity. I've passed Firefox along to people who might qualify as the above, I've spent a few hours with them as they learned and now, you couldn't EVER get them away from Firefox, Opera, Mozilla, etc... They're living proof that users CAN be educated and that's priceless. I beam like a shiny Rolls-Royce when I hear one of them tell a coworker "Yeah, I never use IE...only for Windows Update...". It's the best feeling when someone LEARNS, they're looking to YOU, the experienced one, for guidance and help. And I love helping them. And it's the worst feeling when you try so hard to help someone out and they shove it aside because they're dumbass ignorant users who care nothing more than clicking a button and seeing www.msn.com. Please. Give me the gun now...

    Oh yeah, and sorry, but yeah, your wife IS stupid if she can't get to her Yahoo if that blue E disappears...

    Itís time to stop thinking like developers and start thinking like users. For evidence that the Firefox team thinks like developers you donít need to go any farther than the Firefox home page. Letís look over that page and put ourselves into the userís shoesÖ
    It's time users stopped being so idiotic and "led like sheep" and started thinking "there's got to be a better way". Do you know that most people now, with the way they write in email, in chat rooms, and in IM sessions, that most don't have a vocabulary at all? The internet makes people less intelligent, just like the TV does, and I'm certainly not going to blame the firefox homepage on being "overly technical" and "confusing" people that can't read past an 8th grade intelligence level.

    Firefox 0.9 is the award winning preview of Mozillaís next generation browser.

    Whatís a preview? Does that mean I canít use it. Is it like a demonstration or something? And whatís a next-generation browser? I thought this thing was supposed to help me use the Internet.
    You've got to be KIDDING me. What's a PREVIEW? Is that what a user says? No, I don't think so.
    Last time I checked, most users wanted to get rid of popups, make their machine faster, etc...

    ...skipping some of the other stuff...

    Firefox is the most customizable browser on the planet.

    Thereís that browser word again. What is it? And why would I customize it? Does that mean that this wonít work when I get it? Iím going to have to work on it to get it working?
    If a user seriously doesn't know what a "browser" is, well, there's nothing I can ever do to educate their sorry ass... And the same user who customizes AIM/YIM/MSN/ICQ/etc along with making their email messages all that pretty **** in it can't customize or has to question why they would want to customize it??? What?!

    ...skipping some other stuff...

    The new Easy Transition system imports all of your settings - Favorites, passwords and other data from Internet Explorer and other browsers.

    I donít know what that means. Maybe if I get this thing, the way I use the Internet is going to change. All I want is a way to use the Internet without getting all that junk. I donít want to have to change my passwords and stuff to do that.
    And this person doesn't know what the word IMPORT means? It's part of the installation. Oh wait, I forgot, this is the same user who just clicks EVERYTHING. Just keep clicking Next, Ok, or Finish, and all will be good, right?! No wonder the spyware, viruses, and whatnot are infesting their computer like termites in an old wooden A-frame house...

    -------

    My rant is over on the above, but it's yet again a sight of "think of the users". That's like saying "think of the baby seals" except I'd definitely rather club the users over the head rather than the seals. Most users I know are pretty ok. I have a set of utilities I pass on to them that I recommend and use.

    Perfect Disk by Raxco
    Complete Registry Cleaner by Abexo
    Ad-Aware SE by Lavasoft
    Firefox by Mozilla
    Thunderbird by Mozilla

    I sit down with them, import everything, update everything, fix up their machine, defrag the drive(s), etc...then I show them EXACTLY what they need to do. And after about two weeks of them doing it, they're SO AMAZED at the performance increase, lack of spam, lack of spyware, fast internet, etc...they're falling over themselves thanking me for my time, etc...of which I did for free...all I say is "Buy the next version that comes out of program X or donate 10-20 bucks". And most have...

    That's the best feeling in the world...educating someone who wants a better internet, a better machine that runs as good as it did when they bought it, etc...they're the end user who woke up and said "Damn, I'm tired of this slow crap, popups, and spyware! Show me the light!". All those need are someone who's willing to show them what's good, what's not, and how to use it. Do that and you have a converted user. And you know what they say about the converted, hehe...sometimes, they're 100% more zealous than you'll ever be.

    Sorry if I come off as caustic or hostile...I just didn't like the post this other guy had somewhere else (not you SDK ) where he pointed out how the browser wasn't "user-friendly", slammed on the technical side of Firefox, and definitely didn't show the good things that Firefox DOES bring to the table...a faster-loading, popup-included, non-spyware infested browser that has functionality that IE has YET to look at and is better all-around in a lot of areas that IE and others aren't. Those are MHO, of course, but it hasn't crashed yet, hasn't caused a single error in Windows (since it's not tied into the "engine" of windows, hehe), is fast as hell, and is 100% free. I've even donated $50.00 to Mozilla because of their work in Firefox and Thunderbird, which I also use.
    We the willing, led by the unknowing, have been doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much with so little for so long that we are now qualified to do just about anything with almost nothing.

  2. #22
    AO Ancient: Team Leader
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    I'll add my 2c..... You knew I would.....

    Some facts:

    1. Almost very machine a person buys today comes with IE
    2. They don't care what it is as long as it gets them to their pr0n.
    3. When they get to work and it's different they start making noises.
    4. If it doesn't get changed they stop using it.
    5. When they stop using it parts of their job go undone thus they are unproductive.
    6. When their Administrators ask why they are unproductive they say X doesn't work.
    7. The administrators come down on IT and eventually you give up.

    Some facts about _my_ work environment:

    1. My workstation is slightly faster then the average for my company, (AMD 1G/256M RAM).
    2. I run on a 10BaseT connection while most users run on 100BaseT.
    3. They use IE, I use IE.
    4. They use Access 97, I use Access 97... But I have 2002.
    5. In short... everything they have is either equal to or better than what I have.

    Now why is that??????

    Simple really.... Because I know what they are dealing with... I can see where the problems are and mitigate them or warn the users about them. I can see the limitations of my network before they can.

    What does that do?.... It keeps me ahead of the game.... I see the problems before the users can and I plan and fix them before there is reason for complaint.

    The same applies with the use of IE... With the list of "facts" above I need to use it in the environment my users have to and stay on top of the issues. Yeah, we get spyware... I have 650 machines on the network. But I don't get anything dangerous because the policy on the web filter is set to catch the worst offending sites before they can get to it. Couple that with an effective IDS system that is updated daily or more often if it is necessary. The fact is that, for the most part, spyware is harmless.... It eats my bandwidth is my biggest complaint.... Yeah... I know.... Cleaning time.... I spend 15 minutes on it.... If I fail I call an employee to re-image the disk..... period.... No big deal.....

    IE is a perfectly functional, easy to use, accepted and preferred by the majority, (even if it is by "default"), and will continue to be for a long time.

    My old adage to my CEO has always been:-

    It's your train set. you can play with it any way you like.... It's my job to make it work for you".

    How hard is this folks....
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
    \"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools.\" - Thucydides

  3. #23
    Macht Nicht Aus moxnix's Avatar
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    3. When they get to work and it's different they start making noises.
    4. If it doesn't get changed they stop using it.
    5. When they stop using it parts of their job go undone thus they are unproductive.
    Well Tiger if you want to make a change and you know your users are going to bitch and complain, and not accept the change..........you just do like the large oil companies are doing.

    Implement a large change at once........let them bitch......then back it down a little........repeate the processes as needed.

    Example > Gasoline was at approx. $1. 699 and they raised it quickly to approx. $2. 299 and then slowly backed it off to about $1.949......raised it again and have backed it off now to $2.039 and everyone is saying "Oh, its not so bad now."
    \"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Champagne in one hand - strawberries in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming WOO HOO - What a Ride!\"
    Author Unknown

  4. #24
    AO Ancient: Team Leader
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    It's your train set. you can play with it any way you like.... It's my job to make it work for you
    Mox: I'll draw your attention to that..... If I can't manage this then I shouldn't be there......

    OTOH, there are occasions where the threat is too great so I do exactly as you state and it works just fine..... I suppose that it's _possible_ that finding the correct balance between letting them do what they want and enforcing certain stuff within what it is they want to do is called "management".....
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
    \"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools.\" - Thucydides

  5. #25
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    And IE doesn't have a popup blocker at all. In fact, IE hasn't had anything close to a major overhaul in over 2 years (or something like that, I don't track it).
    Just to let you know they just installed a popup blocker with sp2.
    When death sleeps it dreams of you...

  6. #26
    Hoopy Frood
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    Originally posted here by muert0
    Just to let you know they just installed a popup blocker with sp2.
    I don't mean to be overly pessimistic, but 10 to 1 says that sites will have a way around this within a month or two. I'm not saying this is Microsoft's fault, but every advertiser in the world's gonna be looking for ways to get around it because without popups they go broke. This would probably happen with every popup blocker if it became enough of a hastle for the people who live off the revenue generated by their ads.

    Regards,
    Xierox
    "Personality is only ripe when a man has made the truth his own."

    -- SÝren Kierkegaard

  7. #27
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    I think that if a user whinges about their blue "E" missing, you should simply change the icon for an alternate browser to it and sit and laugh...mwuhahaha!!!



    ac

  8. #28
    Some Assembly Required ShagDevil's Avatar
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    I tried to completely switch a couple of my friends and family members over to Mozilla products not too long ago. Admittedly, the hardest question they asked was 'why?'. Me being security inclined, I started on the usual speel and within, I'd say...about 30 seconds, I could see that their eyes were starting to glaze over and their attention span was quickly starting to resemble that of someone in a coma. I found that there was no clear cut way to convince anyone to switch products. My resolution was to load both browsers on the box and let them play with each one for awhile. All I did was show them the desktop icons for each one, remove the 'set as default browser' box that likes to pop up every goddamn time someone switches browsers and let them go play on the internet. After about maybe 2 weeks I started to notice the same responses from everyone: "This Firefox/Mozilla isn't too bad at all, once I got used to it".
    But, They still tend to use both IE and Mozilla/Firefox for varying reasons and I suppose that's ok. The thing that bugs me the most is that now that they know how to use both browsers, why is the reluctancy still there to completely switch over to one that is more secure?
    The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his - George Patton

  9. #29
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    Yeah, I know a popup blocker comes with SP2, but we all know A: how effective that'll be and B: how many of these "average users" will actually GET SP2.

    My whole point is that regardless of what product you name, if it doesn't come with windows, the standard user won't ever use it because it's not like what they're used to.

    As for why people would still continue to use something like IE when there's better and more secure products out there is beyond me.
    We the willing, led by the unknowing, have been doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much with so little for so long that we are now qualified to do just about anything with almost nothing.

  10. #30
    Hoopy Frood
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    Originally posted here by Vorlin
    My whole point is that regardless of what product you name, if it doesn't come with windows, the standard user won't ever use it because it's not like what they're used to.
    Very true. I myself am this way, however I'm trying to break away from it. I've begun searching for open source alternatives to programs I use a lot because I know it's generally better. I find it hard to convince myself that there could be a better program than what I use now, but once I try something different, I'm like, 'Wow! Open source did it again! Why doesn't *insert some software makers name here* do this?" I'm trying to convince myself to go to Linux and am planning on doing it as soon as I get a bigger hard drive.

    Regards,
    Xierox
    "Personality is only ripe when a man has made the truth his own."

    -- SÝren Kierkegaard

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