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Thread: Gay marriage ban passes

  1. #41
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    Cybr1d, I apologise. I must have not looked at your nick properly and confused you with rcgreen. So the pm stuff doesn't apply, nor does the comment about previous posts you have made. I'm slightly colour blind and I glanced at your avatar and thought it was rc's.

    And btw -- I had completely forgotten about that thread ages ago.

    lol...damn. Just realised it while reading your last post. Thought the "I'm still waiting" bit was strange. And now I can't use those quotes I collected from my inbox :P

    ac

  2. #42
    Ah, it's not that difficult. Just go with my answer.

  3. #43
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    Both. I'm avoiding the question because it is too difficult.
    After all, some of the greatest philosophers have already spent a lot of effort on it. Who am I to add anything to their efforts
    What I say from here is _not_ a personal attack on you..... It's observation, nothing more, nothing less, of people with a religious "bent".... It is not critical of you or anyone with a belief.... I feel I need to put this in here to avoid the death threats from the religious.... The word "you" will be used in the plural not the individual sense unless specified, in which case it isn't an attack.... I'm also not saying that I am smarter than anyone who reads this.... OK?....

    So, from that I can logically conclude that you are a follower rather than a leader insofar as you don't question the premise itself or the work of others on it you just follow the premise and the thoughts no matter where they may take you.

    That would explain your, (that's a "real" your), reliance on quotation of the scriptures. It's much easier to accept the writings and thoughts of others than to question them and think for yourself. That being the case how can you claim or even expect freedom? You tie yourself to an unprovable doctrine that places restrictions on your decision making processes yet you claim to be "free". Free of what?

    Religion, by it's very nature, is blind.... It doesn't evolve quickly because it is, in it's absolute basis, a controlling factor and the people with the control hate to relinquish that control.... That's human nature and animal nature.... period. After all, we are just animals..... Don't kid yourself we aren't animals... There are many religions in this world, (which is an anathema itself if it was created by a single supreme being), yet not one has _any_ proof whatsoever that their supreme being(s) actually exists. I won't ask why that is a fact..... Because I already know no-one has an answer that is viable. But did you ever wonder why an omnipotent being that created the universe wouldn't "drop in" from time to time to say "Hi, I'm really here...."? Just to prove that there really is a supreme being out there whether he is part of your religion or not.....

    OTOH.... Religion is a _wonderful_ way for the "smart" people in a society, who understand that in order to have numerous people living in close proximity there has to be some order, (read: rules), that they need to live by or the society will fall apart. That's how religion evolved and that's what you believe in now..... some form of "order".... many of the religious doctrines, (if you look at them carefully and in context make a ton of sense.... "bury your dead the same day they die in the middle east - ever smelt a dead body - they go off real quick in the desert - and promote disease.... They may not have understood the relationship between the dead body and bacteria but they sure as hell understand that people get sick if you leave a stiff around for a few days on the back porch of the tabernacle..... )

    I'm rambling.... like that's a 'first'.....

    Here's the statement that will get me my death threats.......

    Religion is for those that either, don't have the inclination to "think and discover" or don't have the mental agility to do either. It is for those that can't accept their own stupidity or lack of knowledge and still have a need to assume thay are the smartest thing on the planet, (that little teeny thing in the universe that is the only place your supreme bring visited).

    Comments, thoughts, flames, nuclear weapons gleefully accepted......
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
    \"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools.\" - Thucydides

  4. #44
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    angelicknight saying your against homosexuality is like saying your against blonds...dont dye your hair or dont go out with one!?! with more and more evidence every day that homosexuality is abundant in the animal kingdom (BTW my g/f's daughter has a gay dog) i sincerly doubt any 'choice' is being made here and your religion will testify that animals do not possess free will to make that choice.

    when the battle for gay marriage was reaching its height and the reaction that was comming to it was obvious, the smart thing to do at that time would have been to "settle for" a package, not individual rights but a package deal, that was ever bit as equal as marriage but retained a different title. the whole country was prepped for this and would have accepted it. we had no choice that was what we all professed to believe...even bush! but no...it had to be pushed beyond the point of no return by a bunch of half witted activists and now negative ligislation is being passed which will affect the whole gay commnity...congratulations
    Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”

  5. #45
    HeadShot Master N1nja Cybr1d's Avatar
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    Cybr1d, I apologise. I must have not looked at your nick properly and confused you with rcgreen. So the pm stuff doesn't apply, nor does the comment about previous posts you have made. I'm slightly colour blind and I glanced at your avatar and thought it was rc's.

    And btw -- I had completely forgotten about that thread ages ago.

    lol...damn. Just realised it while reading your last post. Thought the "I'm still waiting" bit was strange. And now I can't use those quotes I collected from my inbox :P

    ac
    Apology accepted....I was just so confused lol.

    Take care.

  6. #46
    Leftie Linux Lover the_JinX's Avatar
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    So the answer is here..

    Combinig most of the things I read here into one package.. you get two options..

    Man - Woman => marriage

    (Man - Man) or (Woman - Woman) => narriage

    Same rights for married and narried people.. end of discussion ???
    ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI.
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  7. #47
    Hoo boy, now how in the world am I going to discuss counterpoints with two people at the same time? Ah well, here goes nothin'...

    Tiger, you shouldn't be flamed for sharing an observation, even if it is a stupid one (ha, kidding). Seriously though, a lot of people do follow religion blindly, and do so because they're followers, gratned. I don't know if this is a bad thing. I've always been a leader by nature so that's a way of thinking I don't understand very well. However, even Scripture itself encourages believers to question. A religion that expects blind belief won't ask this, and is all the more reason I believe this is more than a mere religion. The biggest irony I find in all this is all the material that is vehemently against religious zealotry -- Jesus was very much a religious rebel, not a religious fanatic. Jesus was the perfect example of thinking for yourself and going against the grain of religious sacred cows, and I love that. Furthermore, this is why I avoid calling myself a "religious person". I have religion in there, but the full scope of things is that I'm a truth seeker, and I find that christianity is, in my opinion, the only belief that transends mere shallow religion. Religion is a tool of christianity, but true christianity is not a religion -- it's a life. Religion is merely the tool of a limited mankind to connect to something far greater than itself. This is why those who become too obsessed and legalistic with religion miss the point altogether. And this is why so many tv evangelists are complete and utter morons.

    This is also why I don't answer every question by quoting a scripture. All that shows is my ability to memorize; if I can tell you what I understand and have learned as a result of scripture and as a result of testing its validity firsthand, then I don't need to quote "book chapter:verse" says this. This is good for me, because I have a horrible memory with those numbers and chapters anyway.

    So religion by nature is blind...hmm...Maybe for some, but for me that's illogical. If that were the case, I could just pick one and go with it because I liked it. But what I've done is analyze, test by applying in my own life, and critically question like crazy until I found the answers I was looking for. My faith is the only one that has managed to answer all the questions so far, and something tells me that's going to continue to be the case. I've played devil's advocate debating these same issues with myself so many times it's crazy, which is why I'm as confident as I am. My religion is not a control factor...it's a growth exercise and a motivation. Control factors will always fail because the truth is we have no control. Nor does my religion control me in the sense that many think it's meant to. Just like a good philosophy class, my faith and accompanying religion spur me to deeper thought, better self-control, and greater understanding.

    So how do you explain "smart" people like me going with religion? I'm nonconformist to the point of being an extremist. If it's one thing I loathe, it's walking in line with everyone else without question. In fact, my stance on religion often puts me at odds with both the religious and non-religious at the same time, so I often wind up going it alone. So, it's gotta be something more than the fruit for the blind follower if such is the case with me.

    Besides, we don't need religion for order, we just need a big guy with a gun.

    Religion is for those that either, don't have the inclination to "think and discover" or don't have the mental agility to do either.
    Ok, since you've said that, I'll take the same bold risk in response and share my own observation:

    Aetheism is for the close-minded who can't escape the box. They can't imagine a world beyond three dimensions, so they deny it's possible. It's for the book-smart intellectual who has no grasp of anything beyond the academic, no understanding of the truly intuitive, and no reliance on anything other than pure but easily fallible logic. There's room for exception there, but that's what I generally see. It's an unbalanced viewpoint. At least the agnostic claims complete ignorance and realizes that something's possible....they just don't know what and how.

    But that is neither meant as a jab either, just an equally general observation. That is honestly what I see time and time again. I just wanna shake these people sometimes and ask "Will you at least just try to step outside your borders?!"

    Yeah, I guess I'll humbly take any flames for that one as well. Ah well, at least we're on even ground.

    Ok, so on to debate #2...

    your against homosexuality is like saying your against blonds
    Well I do find that most blondes are horrible drivers (heh heh, kidding, just couldn't pass that one up). Actually I am blonde, so I can say that (even though I'm a wicked driver). Anyway, man, these stances always drive me nuts, no offense. Blonde is a hair color, homosexuality is a lifestyle. No comparision. I'm opposed to the choice of homosexuality, not just because of my faith, but because it is also simply illogical. You don't choose your skin color (racism), you don't choose your sex (sexism), or your age (ageism), but you do choose your "sexual orientation". Even if your "born" leaning a certain way, you still have a choice -- I was born with the desire to impregnate every hot girl I see, but am I doing that? Nope. I'll respect the homosexual community, but I'm not bending on my own faith- and logic- based values.

    And I get very angry for our black community when people compare it to the days of racism. You can argue that I'm biased because of my different stanc on values, but you're gonna tick me off if you start trying to make it a prejudice issue. Keep it in the arena it belongs in -- a different belief in morality.

    Ok...Now I'm gonna go get me something to drink!

  8. #48
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    Religion is a tool of christianity, but true christianity is not a religion -- it's a life.
    Bingo..... You have it right there Angelic..... You have it right there.....

    In order to live in a society one must conform to certain "standards" or the society tends to degenerate and eventually falls apart taking with it the benefits of living as a group such as shared food sources, shared skill sets etc. Religion is the tool, as you so accurately stated, that has been used to pass on and instill those standards in the different societies. They have done this by taking the fears and existing beliefs of the society and weaving the standards into those beliefs. Hence there are a gazillion religions out there that have the one true supreme being..... One that no-one has ever seen in any religion..... I'm not saying this is wrong at all..... I fully understand that x thousand years ago there was only really one way to pass on information and information as important as the standards required "special" attention.... Hence religion. Religion is the ruleset for the society that implements it. But it's still just a tool to pass on those standards that are expected of you in your "life". See how that works?

    So religion by nature is blind...hmm...Maybe for some, but for me that's illogical. If that were the case, I could just pick one and go with it because I liked it.
    But you can Angelic, you can. There's a thousand people a day that change religion because they prefer A over B. But if you bear in mind the paragraph above they are chosing a life/lifestyle not a religion. The religion is the tool that "regulates" the life... You said so yourself.....

    Aetheism is for the close-minded who can't escape the box.
    I'll preempt this by pointing out that while there are good and bad people/interpretations of every religious leaning there are the same within the athiestic society.

    Bearing in mind that all religions start with the premise that there is a supreme being in one form or another and that when something can't be explained with the current level of knowledge then it must be attributable to an act of said supreme being there's your box Angelic. In fact, you see examples of the box holding back societies consistently throughout history. It's taken the Catholic religion some 150 years to accept Darwin's Theory when many have accepted it as a truth for almost 100 years.... The only reason it wasn't more readily accepted is that it conflicted with the religious belief that a supreme being created everything and the religious belief can't be called into question or it begins to fall apart. It's the glue that holds the society together, (rightfully or not), and it must be maintained regardless of factual evidence. You don't see a box there? Athiests, OTOH, don't start from a premise, (or shouldn't), other than everything is explainable - just not yet. It will come.

    The other box people of religion tend to put themselves in is that of arrogance. They just know that if they aren't smart enough to understand something it must be the product of a supreme being because, (turn of phrase here), god forbid that we even begin to consider ourselves as inadequate.... We are humans after all.... The most powerful thing on the planet.... *cough* hurricane, volcano... weather itself..... Oh yeah, there's that supreme being again.... Those things we can't control, ie make us appear weak, must be his doing.

    It's for the book-smart intellectual who has no grasp of anything beyond the academic
    Er... I left school at seventeen, I read computer books when I read, I spent 10 years in the military and the remaining time in computers. I grasp much more than the academic, in fact I don't grasp much that is academic - I really don't even like academics that much - most of them have no common sense whatsoever... But I'm an athiest....

    At least the agnostic claims complete ignorance and realizes that something's possible
    No, agnostics are the fence sitters.... They have reached the point where they have begun to understand the redundancy of religion but they can't find the wherewithall to make the final step for any number of reasons. The most usual one being fear.
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
    \"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools.\" - Thucydides

  9. #49
    Religion is the tool, as you so accurately stated, that has been used to pass on and instill those standards in the different societies. They have done this by taking the fears and existing beliefs of the society and weaving the standards into those beliefs.
    But that answer stops short for me. The period comes too soon. That means our species is the only species that requires a lie to survive as a community. In order for us to evolve as an ordered society, we have had to build upon fairy tales. Is this truly logical? If we have the need for this, then why is the need pre-programmed into us? And why do unrelated, unconnected civilizations throughout history who have had no contact with each other create similar religions sharing similar conclusions. Everyone from the Native American to the ancient Arabian and the Orientals of old agreed there was something higher...even though they didn't know each other existed, much less knew they agreed. Why? Why did all these societies, following apparently pre-programmed instinct draw to the basic same conclusions, with only details differing? Is this logical? Or is this a genetic arrow pointing in the direction of something much higher and very creative?

    Hence there are a gazillion religions out there that have the one true supreme being
    But could it be that one of those "true supreme beings" is the true supreme being? For instance, you have multiple, identical cups -- but one of them, and only one of them, has the prize inside; all the others are empty. However, you conclude preemptively that since all cups claim to hide that prize, that therefore there really is no prize...when in fact one of them does have the prize, you just have to find it through a process of critical thought, testing, and deduction.

    And so you ask, why the gauntlet of tests and room for error? Why can't I just be shown which cup is telling the truth and which ones are lying? Perhaps, I'd suggest, it's an exercise to teach you how to think for yourself. Instead of just giving it to you, you're expected to seek, question, discover, and learn. The answer's there to find, you just have to put forth the effort and not come to a conclusion too soon, lest it be the wrong one.

    This is how I look at the variety of religions. Only one cup has the prize. That's why I've stuided them comparatively, relative to each other. Mine is the only one that answers all my questions; the others have failed one way or another. Critical thinking, deduction, discovery. I think it's more rewarding that God hasn't just handed me the answer on a golden plate. My theory is that's the point.

    Now, your question is why do I believe there is a prize, and that all the cups aren't actually lying about their contents? I can't answer that in words on a thread. All I can say is I've looked under one particular cup, and what I found has brought me something that has trenscended both logic and description. But that's part of the beauty about it. It's an unanswerable question in words. Only experience, experimentation, and getting your hands dirty can answer that. It cannot be fully taught or explained, only demonstrated and experienced.

    And that's how I'm escaping both boxes of religion and faithlessness. The walls are continually expanding and falling down. It's not that I thought a supreme being was the only possibility from the beginning; it's that I weighed all possibilities I could look at, and that's the one that fit, like a perfectly missing puzzle piece.

    But you can Angelic, you can. There's a thousand people a day that change religion because they prefer A over B
    I can't logically. Because, as it is, there are things I don't like. I don't like that people I like might not make it to heaven. I don't like that I can't have God sit down in this chair by my desk in my office for a nice long talk. I like how Buddhism believes people of all religions can make it to paradise. I like how Islam beliefs that Jews, Christians, and Muslims can all make it to heaven. But I can't switch because I like that -- I can't switch because it defies the logic I've discovered. Something cannot be both true and untrue at the same time, and in order for these beliefs I like to be followable, then it would mean certain things were both true and untrue simultaneously in order for them to coexist. Such is not logical or possible. Thus I must toss aside what I like or prerfer and go with what is logical. There are things I don't like -- nor do I understand -- but I know enough to trust that there is good reason for it. Therefore, I cannot switch less I betray what I know to be logically true, regardless of what I "prefer".

    when something can't be explained with the current level of knowledge then it must be attributable to an act of said supreme being
    I don't subscribe to that thinking. Just because something isn't explainable doesn't mean God did it. First, you have to look at each instance, and way all the possible causes, then deduce which one fits. In the right cases, God fits, though the other options are possible at first assessment -- but the other options fail to answer the questions that the "God puzzle piece" does. As the great Sherlock said, once all possibilties have been knocked out, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be true.

    Hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes -- scientific phenomena and consequences of the environment and atmosphere. But where did the ability for this phenomena and science to exist come from? How can something as amazing as science not be a creative product of an ultimate Scientist? It's certainly something to ponder.

    Logic -- when we see order and beauty, no matter how subjectively we each see it -- there's always creativity behind it. So why is the big picture the exception? Why is the big picture the only picture that does not have a painter? Is this logical?

    Your blind religious fanatics are the only ones demanding blind faith. Meanwhile, the Bible itself is saying within its pages "test me and see". It does say not to put God to the test, and many people understand this out of context -- that particular OT verse meant not to put God up to challenges as if you're in a place to do so. It doesn't mean don't question. There is a verse elsewhere that encourages questioning -- as if God is saying "don't take My word for it, give it a shot and find out".

    It saddens me to see "religious leaders" ignoring these verses and demanding blind conformity.

    Furthermore, my belief only continues to reinforce how inadequate and lacking of control I really am. I'm only reminded of how little I know, how I have no ground to be arrogant on, and why I must respect everybody else.

    That's how it works for me anyway...Well, at least two of us are enjoying ourselves in this conversation.

  10. #50
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    Once again, I don't feel like reading all the post so, here's the sum up. **** your religion. If you choose to believe it, fine, but don't make everybody else adhere to the rules set up by the bullshit you believe.

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