Microsoft will start fighting spyware/adware

[HTRegz]

Originally posted here by poohsuntzu

1. MICROSOFT DOES TOO MANY PATHCES PER MONTH!!11 OMFG THE OS MUST BE SO BUGGY AND IT'S ANNOYYING!

Solution: Microsoft releases only one or two larger patches a month versus every few days.

Responce: OMFG MICROSOFT TAKES FOREVA TO RELEASE PATCHES!!!11 WUT ABOUT THE SECURITY HOLE YESTERDAY!!!111

Don't you dare try to lump those who say they were too frequent and those who say it takes too long.. and what's with the typing? I don't talk like that and I bash the f@#$ out of MS. Most of the skiddies that type like that run Windows because it's an idiots OS to use and it's all their little brains can handle. Anyways.. I think they are a company that lacks ethics and convinces the weak minded that they are doing a good job. As far as updates... they should be out frequently... we shouldn't have to wait a month... or even 2 weeks (if they release an emergency mid-month patch)... There's no reason why they shouldn't release a patch, fix or at least even a workaround for problems within 72 hours of the discovery and report of the problem. After all we've paid a shitload of money for their products. Here's my question... what's with all this rebooting on updates after Service Pack 2? and the constant reminders every 5 minutes? I thought the thing about XP was that you didn't have to reboot as often as other MS OS's... I now find I'm rebooting XP more frequently than 98.. New Hardware... reboot.. new update... reboot.. new software... reboot.. This is still one place where *nix blows MS out of the water.

2. OMFG THE WINDOWS FIREWALL IS HORRIBLE!11 IT'S OFF BY DEFAULT AND IT SUX ADN I WANT CHOICE. STOP FORCING SOFTWARE M$!!!11five

Solution: Microsoft turns on the firewall by default as well as releases an enourmous update to the firewall's capability in SP2.

Responce: OMFG THE FIREWALL DOESN'T DO IDS OR OUTBOUND CHECKING JUST INBOUNDCHECKING!111 I WANT CHOICE IT SHOULDN'T BE FORCED ON ME!!!1

After reading this section... I'm not sure why you got greenies for this post... blame it on old friendships I guess.. You wouldn't complain about something being off by default and wanting choice... Having software off is what gives you choice in what you use... Also having it off doesn't force anyone to use anything... You could have come up with something much better than this. The firewall did get a nice security update... and it's not bad.. but turning it on by default did remove some choice... It wasn't the greatest of ideas but it is still a limited firewall since we know that inbound firewalls are basically useless (unless you run an OS that can't keep itself patched against worms)... the outbound firewall is the important part... Again you are twisting words to play with those here on AO that don't entirely comprehend everything.

3. ROFL MICROSOFT HAS SOOO MANY EERORS!!!1 ITS BUGGY AND HAS SPYWARE A LOT!! THEY SHOULD HAVE MADE THEIR SYSTEM MORE SECURE AND STOPPED SPYWARE SOME HOW

Solution: Microsoft fixes over 500+ security bugs in SP2, rewrote the majority of Windows DLL files and executables for buffer overflow bounds checking. Now they are going to modify a 3rd party spyware-removal product to better suite their direct OS needs to help fight spy/adware.

Responce: OMFG THEY ARE JUST TRYING TO MAKE MONEY!!!11 SP2 BREAKS A LOT OF PROGRAMS, AND I DON'T BELIVE THAT IT WAS BECAUSE THEY WER CODED BAD!!!!11 OMFG I DON'T WANT SPYWARE REMOVAL I WANT A CHOICE ON WHAT TO USE!!!!11 STOP FORCING SOFTWARE ON ME MS!!!

Service Pack 2 Did break a lot of things.... That's not something that an update should do.. that's something that a new OS should do... They released 500+ but they've still got just as many to go.. As for the whole spyware thing... Microsoft has never been an upfront company... They've always got at least one of their paws lurking in the shadows... Who's to say they won't accept pay-offs in order to 'accidently' forget about certain pieces of software?

This is everywhere. Once Microsoft attempts to solve a problem the MS bashers come out and find something to complain about the solution... usually contradicting what they were origonally complaining about. Let's face it, the majority of the people using and bashing windows are those who are not taking the time to understand it. Like many on AO, I trust in Microsoft's products because I've tested them, learned them, and use them. Think microsoft is sending spyware to report your 31337 files? Why not run your own packet sniffer and see? Think Windows XP is a RAM hog? Well... did you read the manuals and general information about the OS configuration, down to a kernel and service level?

I take great offense to that... I've prolly clocked twice as many hours in MS environments as you have... I have tested their software... I've used it to great extents... and it has it's benefits.. but I've also seen it fail time and time again... This isn't bashing MS because of a blindfold on my eyes... However I think that sometimes you are blinded in your responses... You are too full of pride for Microsoft... it's like your own ego is hurt when someone attacks MS's flaws... and they have many flaws... regardless of what you think. As far as XP being a RAM hog.. it is... Sure you can streamline it.. but then you lose functionality... I have to have 3 services enabled just to use Automatic Updates... that's ridiculous... They assume people have more RAM so they don't streamline their code... this is a known problem with a lot of companies.. MS is just one example of it

Windows could eventually become a perfect OS, and those who do not understand it will still complain about it. I'd be fine with the complaining if people would remember to stop screaming and give a general nod of thanks towards Microsoft. They are striving to solve the problems you complain about constantly. But if you don't send bug reports, send crash reports, and help them directly on issues... then chances are they are shooting in the dark trying to fix things.

As long as MS wants to make things easier first... they'll never have the perfect OS.... They need to follow in the footsteps of *nix in that aspect... Give the advanced users what they need and then build simple GUI controls on top of that. Was it not you before that said they wanted to remove the command line? That's going to ruin the OS.... it'll be the job of the administrator much longer and much more complex..

Peace,
HT

[Relik Hunter]

The whole issue of MS and Earthlink adding anti spy ware and MS stating that there will most probably be a charge for this premium is a joke to me. I see a consistent thread here AOL adds anti virus MS and Earth line follow. AOL adds Spy Zapper guess what happens MS and Earth Link Follow and are almost ready ( 6 mos later) to add anti spy ware. Oh wait AOL offers it at no additional \charge. Anyone see a trend here?

[poohsuntzu]

-will post again after I've calmed down-

[HTRegz]

Originally posted here by poohsuntzu
Okay regs, want to get serious again? Let's rock.



Havn't been on IRC channels or slashdot much have you? It's continual and from the same people, so yes I will dare to lump them together.




It seems everyone but you detected the huge flash of sarcasim in terms of how these complainers usually respond.



Funny, because yet again it sounds like you havn't gotten out into society to check your opinions. The majority of people who MS bash are running a krad31337 UNIX/BSD/*NIX system because it's the latest fad, and I know this because I see it everyday with where I work... where I chat, and the comments on this thread.



This is a case in point, right here folks. Microsoft switched from multiple updates in a month to only a few because of the huge outcry administrators had due to how many times they had to run saftey tests on the new patches before releasing them onto the network... over and over. But.. as always.. someone will complain about it the other way around.



There is a common equation when it comes to uptime:

uptime = online dick size

I don't care if my slackware box has a year and a half uptime, big deal. Doesn't do a damn thing for me or you. I don't care that my XP machine has to reboot every so often for new drivers. The process takes 20-25 seconds, that's it. So until you get over the old-school-elitist OMFGUPTIMEISLEET attitude, you won't ever see that uptime (unless it is in a mission critical server aspect) means absolutley nothing more than the above equation.



Then yet again, you havn't be reading a damn thing on the internet. And please, anyone who has ever seen someone complain that the windows firewall is off by default, comment and let me know. It happens on multiple forums, slashdot, IRC channels, and linux communities. Hell, it even happens on Windows communities. But yet, when you turn it on to please their security aspect... well now they don't like it because they see it as forcing software down their throats.

Do you think I just make this up as I go?




This isn't a matter of twisting, it's a matter of you trying your abolute hardest to make Microsoft seem like an uber-evil company with an OS that you can't grasp. I don't care how many hours you've "clocked" on Windows. IF you honestly feel time == knowledge when it comes to ANYTHING in life... well.. that would explain why you still feel uptime is the king of kings.

You think the firewall on by default removes choice? (another case in point, take notes class) Then turn it off and install your own. How hard was that?




First off, your first sentance comes off as someone who never read the SP2 whitepaper nor tested any sort of release against it's implimentations. A LOT of software broke with SP2 because.. and I'll tell you since you didn't read the paper... that software was using improper memory bounds handling/checking. A lot of MS products broke because those departments were coding improperly. Wait.. wait.. what's that? Different departments might be doing different things under different managers??? Yes. It happens everyday.

And about MS and their spyware evil plan to conqure the world. I'll give you that idea, and a tinfoil hat to go with it. Prove it, and I'll take the hat back from you.



Blah blah blah time == online dick length



Now that's interesting, considering 2 of my 3 boxes are on linux, and only my gaming machine is windows. No, sorry bud, you've messed up again. I only defend Microsoft and Windows because the majority of people havn't a clue what they are saying. You aren't the typical MS basher, I grant you that. But if you are complaining about SP2 security features... but complain still that it breaks things... but won't accept it because you didn't read the whitepaper and thus have NO clue why it does what it does.... well... your a case in point.




If you are losing functionality while streamlining it, then you don't know a damn thing about windows service management. My Windows runs on 75 megs of RAM, period. I'm not the least bit restricted, and since I leave most things to manual settings... that functionality comes on only when I need it and shuts off immedaitally after I don't. Peice of cake. Of course... you would have to care enough to research to know that.


Htregz, sorry. But you wanted to take this personal. You wanted to shout facts. Let's do it. Show me you know what you are talking about before trying to bash (and in the post you made prove my origonal point of MS bashers) and I'll listen. Because right now, this is old school "I've got a linux crush" bashing on a topic you may have sat longer in your chair looking at... but spent less time researching.

^---- Figure people should see what you said....


Well I'll tell ya what since I'm not about to turn this into a flame war and you've proven time and time again that you are a stubborn bastard.... I'll leave it at this...

You can go on and on about your white papers.... that's besides the point... You can quote all the research you want... I don't care if MS told me it was going to break every OS... the point is it shouldn't.. especially when it's their own software... regardless of different divisions and managers... I shouldn't install Service Pack 2 and lose functionality in VB... or with certain wireless features.. You can read all the theory you want and understand it as much as you want... and you can quote your tech support job all you want.. but at the end of the day theory means f@#$ all..... because software never functions in reality how it's supposed to in theory...MS ****s up (Yes I'm saying it this time instead of the comments because this needs to be emphasized) a lot of the time... More than a company of that size with that much money and that many customers should... and what do you get.... you get 'oopps... my bad'. I also love that you are quoting IRC Channels and Slashdot... while they may be geek central... they also have some of the lowest actual tech IQs... I could care less about what people in those places say... unless I've had previous experience dealing with them. As for your love of Microsoft.... you sleep in their bed (regardless of what your systems run).. I run XP as my primary OS.... I use it constantly and in depth.. As new viruses hit our networks I spend hours in the registry pinpointing changes... I also have 2 Linux boxes.... one acts as a server and one is my laptop.. See I can use them interchangeable and recognize the good in both.. however I can also recognize the bad... something you seem to have blinders to when it comes to MS... They have a lot of good.. VS .Net (2005 Beta looks amazing btw), MSSQL (blows Oracle out of the water), SMS is great for management on a large network.. Office Professional is great (if you have all the media)... Access is a waste and Word/Excel/PowerPoint can be easily replicated with free software... but OneNote and Visio are brilliant pieces of software... However with things regarding the Windows Firewall and Security, Patch Management and Resource Usage.... Microsoft has dropped the ball... I see that and know that it's evident... unfortunately in your theoretical world everything works out perfectly... Give yourself a few years... (yes, I realize we're nearly the same age.... but unfortunately you're fake beliefs and stubborn mind have warped you)... Then you'll understand how computers really work... and quit accepting theoretical reports as the word of God.

Peace,
HT

[poohsuntzu]

That's fine. I edited my post because I felt it was inappropriate. It doesn't bother me that you reposted it. So, let's get back to buisness.

You can go on and on about your white papers.... that's besides the point...

I'm afraid not. A whitepaper defines how something works, why it works, and it's implications upon software. If you do not choose to read and follow the whitepapers, then the chances of having something go wrong during deployment are usually much higher.

You can quote all the research you want... I don't care if MS told me it was going to break every OS... the point is it shouldn't.. especially when it's their own software... regardless of different divisions and managers... I shouldn't install Service Pack 2 and lose functionality in VB...

You are right , it shouldn't. But it did, and for a very good reason. People had begun coding sloppy, losing the proper secure coding techniques that used to be so highly valued. SP2 began to enforce some of that code in the name of security (like many linux patches) which some things broke because of their bad code. From improper C bounds checking, to bad permissions on memory management, things broke because they were an insecurity to the system. That's a very important thing to remember. So it broke bad programs, the majority of the programs had patches out in the first week after which fixed their shotty code on the affected areas.

You can read all the theory you want and understand it as much as you want... and you can quote your tech support job all you want.. but at the end of the day theory means f@#$ all..... because software never functions in reality how it's supposed to in theory...

No, I'm not talking theory, I'm talking first hand experience. My computers, my clients computers, my company's networks. I've seen it happen, made it happen, and thus base it on no theory. I am fully aware of software not preforming the way it was intended sometimes, but that doesn't mean it can't still be tested, researched, and those ascew possibiities accounted for.

MS ****s up (Yes I'm saying it this time instead of the comments because this needs to be emphasized) a lot of the time... More than a company of that size with that much money and that many customers should... and what do you get.... you get 'oopps... my bad'.

I'm not trying to be degrading, but it sounds like you have not had much experience in a large scale enviroment (5000 + employees running multiple projects). When a company gets a certain size, with that many internal things happening at once... there are bound to be complications (much like the theory of perfect software just not happening). However, we shouldn't chalk this up to "It shouldn't happen" but instead "It will happen, eventually". I'll agree that MS has done some dumb moves in the past, but I respect what the company is trying to do as a whole.

I also love that you are quoting IRC Channels and Slashdot... while they may be geek central... they also have some of the lowest actual tech IQs... I could care less about what people in those places say... unless I've had previous experience dealing with them.

Well, that regs was the entire point of my previous rant. Not based towards you, nor the general "smarter admin" community, and thus the obvious scarastic capslock. It was meant for the majority of MS Bashers, the ones that hang on slashdot, IRC and the likes. That was the entire point.

however I can also recognize the bad... something you seem to have blinders to when it comes to MS...

I'm far from blind, especially since I'm a very former beta tester for Microsoft's Longhorn testbed. I know Windows has it's flaws, and Microsoft as well. But I've just, over problem solving experiences, learned workarounds to easily bypass most of them. Instead of throwing my hands up and hating the OS, I adapted around it to work how I needed it to versus force myself to work how it wanted me to. I can write lists that I still don't like about windows, but that's for another topic.

(yes, I realize we're nearly the same age.... but unfortunately you're fake beliefs and stubborn mind have warped you)... Then you'll understand how computers really work... and quit accepting theoretical reports as the word of God.

Once again, I don't talk in theory, I talk from first hand experience. Belive me or not, it won't matter because you won't change and neither will I. We both have our experiences in which we speak from, but we both took different paths to overcome those experiences.


And my apologies about the origonal post. That is why I removed it, as it wasn't to hide what I've done from the others of AO, but because I was ashamed at my outburst towards you. Now, I would much rather talk facts and numbers with you, experiences and why we can have such conflicting opinions on the same OS resulting from our own trials with it.

[PuReExcTacy]

Hey, if Microsoft wants to add in anti-spyware, then I'm all for it. It's going to make administration work that much easier, and the end users will have a much better computing experience.

I'm glad to see M$ taking more of an active approach to security.


--PuRe

[HTRegz]

Hey Hey,

Well now that I've talked to others I'm glad I've learned I'm not the only one getting a kick out of some of your comments...


You want to discuss numbers... so let's look at the bare basics first...and discuss stuff one topic at a time

You're computer uses 75MB of RAM (No Resource Hogging) and takes 25 seconds to boot (Reboots are insignificant)... that's all fine and dandy for you... but since we're supposed to be IT professionals.. how about taking a look at a corporate environment.

So let's take a series of machines on a large network... and let's work on one of them...

IT Support has brought me a freshly imaged machine and plugs it in and walks away saying it works fine... I boot the machine.. Now I'm on a domain so I've got the complete set of standard services plus some additional services... (SMS client, etc)... Messages are sent throughout the internal network by Messenger service... so it's enabled.. Wireless Zero was enabled by default and no one thought to turn it off..

You're saying so what... A few extra seconds in the boot time...

But now let's add my software.. The AV has to load, OneNote loads on startup so I can keep track of things... my office encrypts email so PGPTray loads, we have a Live Communication Server so Messenger loads, I have a USB Harddrive so that I can take my work home with me.. this has to be detected and added.

We're already up to a couple minutes for boot..

However.. I have to authenticate against the domain and there's no profile caching/local profiles so this has to be pulled down and policies have to be applied...

So we've got what about a 3 minute boot time.

Now that I'm in.... well I use Outlook for my office communication.. I've got to load it... It has to connect to the exchange server and display my email... There's another 30 seconds for it to complete. I hit my power button over 3 and a half minutes ago and I'm still not being productive. I'm also using TONS of resources, so I'm already noticing things start to drag...

Now The computer pop-ups a dialog box.. It has detected new hardware (Monitor is different than the one they ghosted with).. Windows fixes this and says I have to reboot (Now it's not really necessary here but I'm a basic computer user.... how do I know any better.. so I reboot)..

We all know Windows takes longer to shutdown than to boot (they changed this because people complained right).. but even so let's say with saving settings, logging off the domain and closing software.. 3 minutes... That's 6.5 minutes Total... add the 30 seconds to aminute for it to install the driver and you're looking at 7 (we'll round down)...

I reboot.. Another 3.5 minutes... now I'm at 10 minutes wasted..

I get everything loaded and remember I have to send my supervisor an email that's on my USB Thumb Drive... It's a cheapie no-name and I plug it in.... What's this message.. Windows has finished installing my devices please reboot (Now normally a Thumb Drive will say you can now use your hardware... however, on occassion we have seen please reboot messages)... Now you have to shutdown and reboot again.... another 6.5 to go down and back up... We're looking at 17.. maybe 18 minutes now..

I'm back up and running and I compose my message... By default Outlook uses Word to compose it's email.. but wait.. there's a bug that hasn't been fixed yet.. sometimes after sending email with Word... Word stays open in the background tying up from 20-40MB of RAM... now my system is even slower.. It takes a good 30-60 seconds for software to load... I'm twiddling my thumbs and remembering my 486...

I'm preparing a presentation so I've got word open with my notes... powerpoint open with my slides and visio open for some flow charts I have to create... All these MS Products and all this wasted memory... my machine is sluggish and seems unresponsive at times... I email a colleague for some additional documentation I need... oh look.. another copy of word in the background... now we're looking at 40-80MB of RAM wasted..

All of a sudden I get this pop-up that Windows has installed an update (look it's the BITS update)... I have to reboot again... There's another 10 minutes.. .Let's say I've lots a good half hour by the time I'm back up...

I have to open all my work again and I start in at it again.... I'm working for an hour and I get message that there's an update to be installed.. It looks big and ends up being SP2... I reboot the machine... another 10 minutes...

I'm back up and I can't log in... Oh wait.. Service Pack 2 firewall is running and it's blocking my communication with AD... with no cached profiles.. I'm really fubared. Time to Call IT Support again.

Now if I'm this person supervisor... I've lost over an hour to computer problems... if this was a dept. of 30 machines... that's a lot of lost productivity... Now in most corportate settings SP2 would have been installed or denied by Group Policy... but that doesn't have to be the case... Also automatic updates would prolly be set for the middle of the night and to a local SUS server with approved updates only...

However that wasn't the case in this scenerio... That's a lot of lost time... To you uptime may be the same as a big online dick... but in the real world uptime means productivity... and in an office setting you can't have a bunch of streamlined PCs... especially when you're supporting so many end-users...

Realistically this would skip the last steps of the auto updates but you're still looking at 30 minutes for everything to take place... that's 15 hours lost for these new machines to come in.... The boot up is also rather slow if our policy is to shutdown machines at the end of the night and boot them every morning.. That's 30 minutes of lost productivity each week from my employees....

Uptime is very important in a large evironment... even if it is the end user machine... The only time it doesn't matter is a single user machine at home... then it's just fun to test your competancy and knowledge.. see how long you can keep something that's working hard running without a reboot...

Anyways... you wanted a real world example.

There you go...

Peace,
HT

PS... forgive typos... I've had two days of First Aid and CPR training followed by 8 hour shifts of work.... I'm exhausted and going to bed... I'll see what this brings tomorrow... g'nite

[poohsuntzu]

Well now that I've talked to others I'm glad I've learned I'm not the only one getting a kick out of some of your comments...

That was uncalled for, and you know it.


Fine, I give up. You know more about large scale IT instances while my experience has been with small streamlined networks and singular streamlined workstations. Happy?

[Tiger Shark]

OK.... I'll bite...

HT... You are kidding me right... You dual boot a box with WinXP Pro and SUS 9.2 don't you? And you are saying that the SUSE boots faster than the XP? If it does then you stripped it down like Pooh says he does.... Not only is it slower to boot than XP Pro on the same laptop but it grinds on plently of other things during normal use too.

Getting back to the topic at hand.....

It's plain to se that M$ is damned if it doesn't do something and damned if it does. So any argument is moot.... It does make me giggle though when I see many who used to bitch that M$ posts a patch a day and they "can't keep up" now bitch that it isn't often enough. Then they bitched that autoupdates break existing loads so the patch a day is even harder but are very happy that their *nix is autoupdating every day... I bet that breaks sometimes too...

It's all a mess and when people start topics like this they are simply baiting, nothing more, nothing less.....

To anyone and everyone... I can prove that my operating system is better than yours in one simple statement:- I can't use yours properly so mine is superior..... for me!!!

[chsh]

Tiger, sorry to say, but I have to disagree with your boot time assessment from my own experiences.

The only reason (IME) any linux box will take longer to boot up than an XP box is if you have to do an FS scan or you have a LOT of services starting up. I've mentioned elsewhere that I have two lilo profiles for the same version of slack on this box:
Profile 1 boots up without Apache, Snort, MySQL, PostgreSQL, and Tomcat.
Profile 2 boots up *with* Apache, Snort, MySQL, PostgreSQL, and Tomcat.
I also have WinXP Pro on this box. For me to boot from lilo selection to desktop is roughly 45 seconds on the WinXP install, about 30 on my Slack Profile 1, and about 1:20 on my Slack Profile 2. That doesn't directly speak to SuSE 9.2's default install, however it gives me at least an indication of how a *slight* change to the boot profile (From Development Workstation to Home Use Desktop) could result in about 30 or more seconds faster boot.
As for "stripping it down", I really don't get why it's an issue. So what if you can boot to a Linux desktop faster than a Windows one?

PS: A comment regarding ClamAV for *nix. The reason it exists is to catch WINDOWS viruses. It's quite popular to use a *nix box as a fileserver to serve stuff up to Windows clients. I do that here at home, and yes, I run ClamAV on it. When you install it, it doesn't come with only definitions for the 7 or 8 viruses for *nix you know...

EDIT: Typos.