The Cowboy and the Indian
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Thread: The Cowboy and the Indian

  1. #1
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    Post The Cowboy and the Indian

    In the late 90's a woman came into my office in tears because she was very upset and offended by an email containing vulgar content and pornography. I think that was probably the day when I realized that there is a lot more to this than just packets being sent back and forth between computers. There are real humans at the other end of the packet stream with real feelings and emotions.
    As current Information Security professionals, and future generations of Information Security professionals, you will need the upper echelons of our society; the judges and the politicians to help pass legislation that will help you do your job successfully. As things stand now, most of the legislation being worked on is being passed based no the financial implications of the outcome. We both know that this will not work. If all areas of our legal system based all their legislation on how large a financial impact someones crime will carry, all the murderers would be roaming the streets and the business executives would be sent to gas chambers.

    In order for the upper echelons of our society to start passing legislation that is going to make a difference, they have to recognize that there is a real human element to computers and the Internet and that they are becoming an essential component of what identifies us and separates us from animals. In essence, they have to stop thinking of you and me as just another cowboy and indian in the wild wild west. The first step in making that change happen starts with you.

    In our real lives, we need to abide by the laws and follow the established and understood rules of the society and cultures we live in in order to keep maintaining that there is nothing medically wrong with us and that we are fully fledged deserving and card carrying productive members of the community we live in. We need to take that attitude and behavior with us onto the Internet wherever we go. We need to stop using the Internet as an outlet in which we can vent our frustrations and do all the things we can't get away with in real life. Once we start doing that and leading by example, then and only then will the upper echelons of our society recognize that computers and the Internet are integral parts of what makes us humans and that it's not the wild wild west full of cowboys and indians anymore.

    We are all in different stages in life, and some of you who have yet to enter my stage may not fully understand this. I have very young children who will one day grow up to use computers and the Internet. My dream is that when they do start using computers and the Internet, it will be devoid of crime, pornography, and all the other dark elements that have reared it's ugly head with the development and growth of the Internet up to this point.

    Regards and warm wishes.
    \"i have no desire to ever win any popularity contest conducted by people who think they can play god online.\"

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    I keep saying it, the internet is just another medium... if you don't like it then stay offline. I for one see the things as they truely are, instructions and network traffic. You can't point at something like that and tell me its bad or illegal.

    If you wanna relate everything you possably can to issues in your life then just remember kids, suicide is hardcore.

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    Senior Member nihil's Avatar
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    In the late 90's a woman came into my office in tears because she was very upset and offended by an email containing vulgar content and pornography. I think that was probably the day when I realized that there is a lot more to this than just packets being sent back and forth between computers. There are real humans at the other end of the packet stream with real feelings and emotions.
    Well, if it had been my office there would have been a lot more tears when I gave her a roasting for opening spam and its attachments I can live with user stupidity becase it is a fact of life, and I am a realist, but when they complain about the consequences, that certainly crosses my line.

    We are all in different stages in life, and some of you who have yet to enter my stage may not fully understand this. I have very young children who will one day grow up to use computers and the Internet. My dream is that when they do start using computers and the Internet, it will be devoid of crime, pornography, and all the other dark elements that have reared it's ugly head with the development and growth of the Internet up to this point.
    Well, I am sorry to say this, but if that were to be true, then the World would have ended. These "dark elements" have been around way before computers and the internet..........they are just using new technology.

    OK a challenge: name me one "dark element" that has come about purely as a result of the internet?

    I keep saying it, the internet is just another medium... if you don't like it then stay offline. I for one see the things as they truely are, instructions and network traffic. You can't point at something like that and tell me its bad or illegal.
    Quite correct! it is merely a communications methodology, a tool, it is incapable of morals, ethics, right, wrong, emotions, opinions or any of those other totally HUMAN aspects. Think of firearms or automobiles............there is nothing wrong with them, of themselves............only with what some people do with them.

    As current Information Security professionals, and future generations of Information Security professionals, you will need the upper echelons of our society; the judges and the politicians to help pass legislation that will help you do your job successfully.
    Errrrrrrrrrrr...........NO!

    IT professionals are not law enforcement officers, moral guardians or anything like that. They are no more so than accountants.

    By the way "cut and paste" jobs aren't too popular here.............or am I to congratulate you on the phenomenal improvement in your english.


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    AO übergeek phishphreek's Avatar
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    OK a challenge: name me one "dark element" that has come about purely as a result of the internet?
    The Internet Worm? For without the internet... it would have just been a worm.

    http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/ni...on3_3_2_1.html
    Quitmzilla is a firefox extension that gives you stats on how long you have quit smoking, how much money you\'ve saved, how much you haven\'t smoked and recent milestones. Very helpful for people who quit smoking and used to smoke at their computers... Helps out with the urges.

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    Originally posted here by nihil

    Errrrrrrrrrrr...........NO!

    IT professionals are not law enforcement officers, moral guardians or anything like that. They are no more so than accountants.

    [/B]
    Hi. You are incorrect.

    ISC2 Code of Ethics Canons

    RFC 1087 (RFC1087)

  6. #6
    Senior Member nihil's Avatar
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    Sorry Phish~ you don't win with that one.............Jebo is quite clearly referring to social ailments, not system flaws.

    Malware is really not different from vandalism, fraud, harassment........only the medium is different

    What I was asking for was a "new sin" not a different way of committing old ones.

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    Lets get something straight... unless there is a storm outside, there is almost no such thing as actual damage through the wire. When and if something ever actually happends, it can be un-done under an hour. I might take the time to maintain & take care of what I own but im not going to get emotional over a square object with buttons. Your views of whats right and wrong and your laws just don't stick at all.

    Fraud... yeah I could see that but vandalism, there is where I draw the line.

    These people are putting boundaries on how patterns of certian values should be modified and transmitted over the web. Why don't they just accomplish every school kid's dream and abolish math.

  8. #8
    Senior Member nihil's Avatar
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    rowdy_yates

    No, I think that one of us is missing the point? jebo seems to be talking about social morality not professional ethics; and seems to be confusing the two..

    Your first link is professional ethics............sure all professional bodies have those (accountants, doctors, dentists............) and they apply to the members of that body alone, in the country whose laws it subscribes to.

    Your second link is to some USA paper of 1989..................which is the neolithic period as far as IT is concerned. The internet, as we know it, did not exist 16 years ago



    Lets get something straight... unless there is a storm outside, there is almost no such thing as actual damage through the wire. When and if something ever actually happends, it can be un-done under an hour. I might maintain what I own but im not going to get emotional over a square object with buttons. Your views of whats right and wrong and your laws don't stick.
    I don't think that the OP was talking about physical damage to hardware?

    Please tell me how you will undo the emotional damage to a child that has been abused for child pornography in "under an hour"

    As for moral attitudes and laws, they belong to the society in which you live..........ignore them at your peril........BUT they have NOTHING to do with computers or the internet, only on how you use them. My point is that technology is incapable of evil, only people are, and that depends on their society's rules.

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    What im getting at is there are people being arrested over some minor crap... someone spread malware, had a site defaced here and there... ewwww how "naughty"! That damn "vandal"! With the way things are going I can have people arrested over assualt on an imaginary friend. And why not... people are doing the same thing over the web.

  10. #10
    Senior Member nihil's Avatar
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    What im getting at is there are people being arrested over some minor crap... someone spread malware, had a site defaced here and there... ewwww how "naughty"! That damn "vandal"! With the way things are going I can have people arrested over assualt on an imaginary friend. And why not... people are doing the same thing over the web.
    Ah! now I see where you are coming from

    Yes, I feel that can and does happen.............OK there IS internet crime (ID theft for example) but that has been going on since people had identities...........it has nothing to do with the internet or computers. That is where I was coming from...........I was asking the OP to show me a new crime that was internet spawned, rather than an old one using new technology.

    I think that this is your point about getting someone arrested?.........the action is the same but the environment/media/technology is different?

    Now, I do not condone web defacement(graffiti?) and malware spreading (vandalism?), but I do sense an over reaction in many cases. It is fear and ignorance perhaps? our lawmakers and enforcers have been caught with their pants down. They just do not understand the technology that they are dealing with?

    In the background we have the corporates, whose executives can blame this sort of stuff for poor performance. The media hype it up as usual (encouraged by corporate spin-doctors)......

    In the old days, you would see a major corporate with as many people in internal audit as they have in IT these days...........the function is still there, the cost is still there, only the names have changed.

    Such is life?

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