Cyber-warfare: prelude to an arms race?

[catch]

I am just curious what everyone's thoughts are on the US Military's offensive cyber warfare programs are?

The problem as I see it is that this blend of cyber/infrastructure/psychological warfare is really only most effective against first world nations. Seriously now, is Afghanistan really going to care if we bankrupt their currency and kill the national power and telecommunications systems? Of course not... what currency? What systems?

This program is directed (actively mind you) at the EU, Canada, Australia, Japan, China, (not Israel of course, heh) etc.

Do you think this will start a new arms race or are we in one already?

cheers,

catch

[Egaladeist]

Hi catch,

Cyberwarfare

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:u...ient=firefox-a
CRS Report for Congress

President Bush secretly signed an order last July directing administration officials to develop the parameters for possible cyber-attacks against enemy computer networks

http://boston.internet.com/news/article.php/1580981
Report: Bush Considering Cyber Warfare

N. Korea suspected of training hackers

http://www.zone-h.com/en/news/read/id=2866/
Zone-H.org * News

The American military is waging cyber warfare upon dissident websites. Please sign the petition calling for an investigation.

To: U.S. Congress

http://www.ntimc.org/newswire.php?st...lts_offset=270
Petition Calling For The Investigation Of Cyber Warfare By The Pentagon Against American Citizens an - National Freedom and Rights - North Texas IMC

Eg

[nihil]

Over the past 5 years I have seen several articles (sorry I don't have any links on this machine) regarding the cyber warfare programmes of China, Taiwan and North Korea.

I would therefore suggest that this is more in the nature of an American response than an American initiative.

just my £0.02

[catch]

Nihil:

There is no evidence those nations have such programs, beyond the fact that such a story will sell papers.

None of those nations have the capacity to develop the type of cyber-warfare the US is. A few programmers knowing about the IIS unicode flaw is not like the US program which includes:

Selected from BAA-AIA-02-0002:

• Counterintelligence
• Computer Network Attack
• Electronic Warfare
• Military Deception
• Physical Attack
• Public Affairs Operations
• Psychological Operations

Of the nations you mention, only Taiwan is an ally (of sorts), how will France/ UK/ Russia/ India/ Germany/ Australia/ etc react when they discover what the US is doing?

cheers,

catch

[nihil]

Catch,

I take your point about evidence...........very difficult from some countries, but the "leaks" and what would be a logical move from them is moderately persuasive.... yes I take your allusion to "media hype" seriously Hey, on Saturday the largest selling UK newspaper (about 5.5 million copies) had a half-page article on a 32" chicken....... and I will swear that on a stack of bibles

I do not think that the US is doing anything that is not already being done by many countries.......OK, maybe the scale/investment level is different? but if an OECD country that relies very heavily on IT technology is not looking in this direction, I would be most surprised.

I, on the other hand would not go this way.............a 100 megaton nuke detonated at 83 miles above your country will wipe out your computers, hair dryers, wrist watches, microwave ovens.......... not the kind of scenario that gets a political party re-elected?

"If in doubt, go for the engineering solution"

Anyways, why would my friend Mr. Bush want to do that to me.............it would be a bloody good excuse for not paying bills?. "the computer is down"?

To summarise my ramblings........... if I can trust the USA with thermonuclear devices, I can probably trust them with computers?

just a few thoughts?

EDIT:

Chuck in a couple of World Wars for historical perspective?

[Egaladeist]

This might enlighten some areas of Nation involvement...

http://www.tecsoc.org/natsec/focuscyberwar.htm
Special Focus on Cyberwarfare - The Center for the Study of Technology and Society

[IKnowNot]

For reference:

Nihil:

There is no evidence those nations have such programs, beyond the fact that such a story will sell papers.

Remember, you asked our OPINIONS.

Opinions don’t have to necessarily be based just on facts, but can include experiences, biases, etc.

For example, I have played with my firewall logs for years and have researched where attacks came from and what they were looking for ( what ports, etc. ) Although I did not save those logs, as my memory serves, there were definite correlations between what I was seeing in firewall logs and what was being reported later in the press. But since I did not save those logs, there is no evidence to back it up. But it is my expierence. ( like, I believe I mentioned before, why I joined AO ... After lurking for years I saw a post about strange port attacks. After researching found they were targeting specifically various utilities, panicked, thought the CIA would be after me if I posted those findings so never did. Do you remember the computer related blackout in the US which came later ? How about similar incidents in other countries ? )

Anyway, my point is I believe that there are countless countries, rebels, etc. that have similar plans. And I don’t think this is a surprise to most. Although crippling a nations currency could be one method used in cyber-warefare, it is not the only way, just another means to create chaos.

The more technology oriented the nation is, the more avenues are available for cyber-attack. But that does not mean a third-world nation is immune, unless they are still using the length of your forearm to measure a yard. They still have banks, communication, etc. It is just how much will it effect the populous of the nation versus the infrastructure.

I think it is up to the Geeks of the world to prevent the war mongers of the world from using the Internet to their advantage despite the demands and expectations of the masses. To do so it is necessary to properly secure, and make known insecurities so they will be patched, and any and everything that can be accessed in any way publically, in any way, and make public information regarding those who prevent this.

Damn, I sound like a liberal here! Better get back to my wine.

[nihil]

Hey IKnowNot ,

I could bring witnesses to my argument that cyber warefare would transcend nuclear warfare from almost 10 years ago?

Hell, who wants to inherit a nuclear wasteland?.............with cyberwarefare it is just reformat and re-install?

[catch]

Remember, you asked our OPINIONS

I asked for opinions regarding the subject of a first world cyber-warfare arms race, not if other nations have been doing this first. While the input is welcome, it needs to be held for what it is, hearsay.

No one really seems to be addressing the issue here, yes other nations may have had cyber-warfare programs before the US. Yes it is important to defend against said programs... the question I am asking:

With the US entering this arena on such a large scale and with the US preparing (scanning, mapping, indexing) for such a war against primarily first world nations most of whom (at least pre-bush) are American allies, do you see an arms war in sight?

This isn't just defacing whitehouse.gov, this is taking down telecom and power grids, through use of computers, physical espionage, and perhaps special service infiltration. (yes some of these tactics are older) This is incapacitating civil defense systems to allow first strike victory scenarios. Way beyond the capacities of the US's current enemy list.

Don't get me wrong, all the rest of this subject is interesting, but it is so broad that I don't think a conversation in this medium can be useful unless it is rather myopically focused.

cheers,

catch

[nihil]

Catch,

100 megatons..............83 miles...... I assume that you are a realist, and are aware of the fact that anyone with nukes has them aimed at others so equipped?

This is not a first world/second world/third world thing.............this is reality...we have nukes pointed at you, just as you do at us

I think that the main issue is that just like thermonuclear warfare, it will kick off in the second world first.

I realise I have invented a new classification with "second world".............these are the "wannabees" like iran, syria and so on (when you scum get to be first world, I will capitalise your names )

You still seem to be clinging to that pathetic "fortress America" attitude? I guess people like you will never get over the reality of 9/11?.......................you see Europe is the financial centre of the World, NOT America

If America cannot trade, it will die..................