Illegal Immigration - Help Save the USA!
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Thread: Illegal Immigration - Help Save the USA!

  1. #1
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    Illegal Immigration - Help Save the USA!

    The conservative talk show I listen to on the way to work every morning had a guest speaker from Colorado named Frosty Wooldridge. The topic was the overwhelming swarm of illegal aliens from Mexico, their drain on our resources, influence on drugs and crime, and blurring of our national identity. On his website he has an enormous list of ways that we can help to let governors, senators, congressmen, media, etc. know that this is an issue that needs to be dealt with. It's never going to happen if people in a position of power think we'll just roll over. If you want to help, his website is rich with links to all the resources necessary to make it easy to let the government and media know what you think.

    If you are concerned about the consequences of mass immigration on our country and on the environment we are leaving to future generations, you are encouraged to take action. Specifically, this action must be focused on our administration and on Congress who are ignoring existing laws on illegal immigration and are effectively promoting unending U.S. population growth through both legal and illegal immigration. Here's what you can do:
    Frosty Wooldridge

    There are links refering you to everything fom the successful Minuteman Project to finding out who your representatives are.

    If nobody acts....the decisions will be made for us.

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  2. #2
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    Hi mathgirl32,

    I'd hate to disagree with you on this one but...as an independant observer...illegal mexicans are not a drain on the US economy...in fact they provide a service to the economy in general by doing low pay farm labor that most Americans would not do...if they were taking other jobs at the same rates I would agree but according to the facts I've read on this controversy in Canada the arguments against illegal immigrants and the economy are unfounded.
    We too are involved in the same contraversy...except about legal immigrants taking our high paying jobs...leaving our own birth citizens with less opportunity.

    Eg

  3. #3
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    Why I, although conservative, don't mind illegal immigration so much:

    1. They usually fill jobs that nobody here really wants to do - dishwashers and cooks in restaurants, farm labor, lawn care, and all those other back-breaking jobs that don't pay enough to attract us.

    2. The jobs they work are obtained (usually these days) using a falsified social security number, meaning they are contributing to our Social Security, and Federal (and state for those of you with state income taxes) tax coffers, without ever having a prayer of ever getting any of it back.

    3. They are willing to take substandard pay if they're being paid cash, or minimum wage for vast amounts of work if they're not - thus keeping our prices lower than the would be if these jobs were filled by citizens.

    To the downside:

    They come to our country and establish themselves, and some attempt to gain citizenship through 'less than legal' methods - marrying out of convenience (even though some already have wives or husbands in Mexico) for citizenship, having children by US Citizens, etc., to 'work the system' and gain access to the benefits accorded to us.

    It's truly a 'tossup' on if the benefits they bring us are greater than the problems they create, but I'll end with this:

    "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses..."
    Didn't your ancestors emigrate?

    [edit]LoL egal, ya slipped your post in while I was typing this one... [/edit]
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  4. #4
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    Yes, everyone says that. It's a played out argument. But in fact, they are a drain on the economy. You might say "oh, well, they are such hard workers", or "but they do all the work nobody else will do", or "because of them, the cost of construction in the south is so low", or "nobody else will work for the low wages they work for". Rubbish!

    If employers were fined for hiring illegals, they would have to pay decent wages to non-illegals. That money would then be much more likely to stay in the country. That money would be taxed. Those workers would have health insurance instead of making legal citizens pay their way. Housing prices would go up a little...but more citizens would have jobs - because the employers would be paying better wages (to avoid fines from hiring illegals). That's better for the economy. We would not be paying for welfare, medical bills, taxes for prisons who house illegals convicted of crimes, etc. The list of benefits, to not just me, but to our country, far outweigh having to pay more for fruits and vegetable and housing.


    *Edit* ...and Black Ice, you slipped your post in while I was responding to Egal's.

    DISTORTION

    Negative impacts of mass migration aren't treated fairly in the media and elsewhere. A plethora of special interests promote mass migration through various techniques designed to emphasize only the benefits. Far too frequently the costs and consequences of mass migration are never mentioned.

    Because of political correctness, a form of bias, writers distort the truth by promoting their agenda, typically liberal, and by avoiding objective reporting. For example, newspaper writers (using 'journalists' usually is a stretch when it comes to immigration) overdose the columns with immigrant and illegal alien 'heart-breakers.'

    Politicians likewise distort the truth (like this is a revelation) to pander for ethnic votes.

    Race-biased groups, under the veil of 'immigrant rights,' distort the truth to gain advantages for their special interest group.

    The basic techniques used to distort mass migration, with possible counter arguments, are:

    Immigrant / Illegal Alien Glorification. Mass migration proponents extol the virtues of immigrants and illegal aliens with glowing characterizations such as "hardworking."

    Counter: Immigration glorification needs a reality check! There are plenty of lazy immigrants and illegal aliens. Our jails are over-flowing with immigrants and illegal aliens. Lower their glorification to the reality that foreign-born persons are neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Making generalizations is generally inaccurate and the issue is mass numbers.

    Economic Benefits. Cheap labor advocates are prone to say something like lettuce will cost $10 a head without migrant labor.

    Counter: Cheap labor benefits only a few and only over the short-run. The wealthy benefit by cheap labor but the middle and especially lower class suffer by having fewer and lower paying jobs. Taxpayers have to pay for the infrastructure costs or face declining quality of services. Competitors suffer too. Point out the unfairness and stress the long term.

    Victimization. In order to justify rewards, illegal alien advocates portray illegal aliens as victims instead of law breakers. For example, many illegal alien 'rights' groups want an amnesty because the illegal aliens have worked hard and are just trying to improve their lot.
    Counter: Agree that illegal aliens have indeed been shamefully exploited. However, the solution is to garner the American will to end acceptance of any underclass, not by rewarding those in the underclass and not by condoning existence of an underclass. Importantly, sanctions against employers of illegal aliens and protection of our porous borders are desperately needed. For more, see Solutions. Ask when and how the opponent expects to end the victimization.

    Character Assassination. This is generally name calling of the messenger using direct or veiled accusations of racist, xenophobe or other derogatory characterization in an effort to avoid discussion of the negative impacts of mass migration. For example, The Denver Post tried to butcher the character of Rep. Tom Tancredo.

    Counter: If anything, mass migration is an issue of nationalism, not racism. If appropriate, point out that the opponent was the first to bring up race, so is the opponent playing the 'race-card?' Ask for an apology and then raise the discussion back to the issue of mass numbers.

    Perverted Fairness. Mass migration advocates often promote mass migration as a solution to global inequity of wealth.

    Counter: While many of their claims of inequity may be true, the unconditional right to violate America's borders is not the solution. Poor people of the world can and should be helped where they are at. America should overhaul foreign aid to emphasize sustainable agriculture, libraries, and contraceptive access instead of giving cash and military hardware to despots. America should refrain from recruiting skilled people away from their homelands. With their perverted sense of fairness mass migration advocates generally choose immigrants and illegal aliens over the welfare of American citizens who bear the consequences and costs. The real issue is to whom fairness is due -- citizens or immigrants and illegal aliens. Immigration is not the solution to global problems.

    Humanizing Distancing. A humanist-centric person might use word distortion even though the issue is acknowledged. Sometimes this humanist-centricity is called 'liberal guilt.' For example, mass migration advocates and the media call illegal aliens 'undocumented' to distance the reality of illegality to a status of legitimacy.

    Counter: Use realistic words. If appropriate, embarrass them with their political correctness because 'undocumented' means the foreign-born have the unconditional right to violate America's borders and immigration laws.

    Humanizing Avoidance. In this more extreme type of Humanizing Distancing (above) the issue is ignored because the problem is contrary to the opponent's humanist philosophy. Admission that 'undocumented workers' negatively impact health care, sprawl, environmental degradation, traffic congestion, and school overcrowding is not perceived as a humane story to expose and consequently the negative impacts are not attributed to mass migration. Typically the humanist holds a globalist perspective.

    For example, school overcrowding is due to mass migration but it is blamed on "The Baby Boomer Echo". Arizona is a war zone of illegal invaders but we hear 'nary a whisper' about it. Border Patrol agent Kris Eggle was murdered by illegal alien drug smugglers but the story was ignored.

    Counter: It is difficult to debate these rather abstract concepts, but we must try. Stress that these major impacts are due to mass migration and can no longer be avoided. Humanism is a worthy goal but to what extent should Americans sacrifice for the benefit of others? Despite injustices, illegality and invasion are not the solutions. Americans should take care of their own first. Stress patriotism and alternative solutions.

    Humanizing Avoidance even shows up in the way statistics are accumulated. For example, school districts are by law prohibited from asking if children are illegal aliens. Anchor babies (children born in the US of illegal aliens) are counted as citizens.

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  5. #5
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    Egal you live in Canada so your observations on Mexican illegal immigration in specific, are moot.

    1# Election fraud.

    2# Hospitals are drowning on theses boarder states (free HealthCare) So, did illegal Papí bust a nut for the 5th time in Margarita? Yeah, it's commonplace in Mehico. De mister Senior Boosh weel pay for hostbatal beel for mae. The philosophy is " hey we can have as many kids as we want and get first class, world renowned healthcare free of charge"

    3# Not paying income taxes.

    4# Majority of the money is exported(not spent in America).

    5# Local funds wasted on their breaking of the law (Rape, Murder, Theft, Public intoxication, DUI, DWI (Tx), Serial Killer "Rail Road Killer" Angel Resendez aKa Rafael Ramirez! ) That **** cost money! Millions in resources from that bastard alone.

    6# Federal funds wasted on exportation back to "mehico"

    7# Jail resources, Pelican Bay state prison CA ($115 million annual operating costs, according to CDC). Thousands of illegal immigrants in that prison alone.

    8# In America every state by law, you have to have auto liability insurance. Do you think they have that?

    We could go on for days about how they are drowning the US economy, which would outweigh the benefits they give to the economy, local on up!

    ***Edit So the question is what is that crooked bastard Vicente Fox doing to his people that makes them want to risk their lives to get here?

  6. #6
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    So tell the class please how you propose we halt it?

    Build a wall? They'll tunnel under it.

    Put in a river? oops, there's already one there. They wade and swim.

    Put out border patrol? We've already got that too, at a hefty expense to the taxpayer.

    A fence? What is this? Berlin?

    No matter how hard we try, illegal immigration will continue. There is just no stopping it. Ask the former leaders of the former USSR how well they stopped people from entering west Berlin from the east...oh, and while you're at it, look what happened in the end.

    Our best bet is to try to find a solution that works, not keep on pumping coin into one that doesn't.

    They send us mass-murderers? Ok, Ramirez. For every one you name, I can name 10 US Citizens off the top of my head who've done the same or worse.

    They use our hospital care at taxpayer expense? Yep, so do 99.99999 percent of the Americans currently living under the poverty level. Gonna kick them out too?

    Election fraud? I know MANY illegals currently living in my area. NOT ONE has ever voted in a US election nor do they intend to. They fear 'la migra' will come get them.

    Jail resources or shipping them back - if we're closing our borders to them, this will continue.

    The majority of money is exported - of course it is. They have families to support down Mexico way. Once again, however, we have to address the futility of attempting to stop them.

    No liability insurance - ok, ya got me on that one, but let me ask you - how many folks do you know out there who're below the poverty level don't have it either?

    Oh - one final word. Don't write off Egal because he's in Canada - his argument was sound.
    Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.

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  7. #7
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    Hi Imitation,

    Like I said regarding Canada...we have the opposite problem...a deluge of legal immigrants taking our high paying jobs away...while your country is exporting low-paying jobs our university graduates often have to take low paying jobs as they are the only ones left...I personally know several people with university degrees who are or have worked in jobs usually allocated to student employment ( minimum wage jobs ) it's not very encouraging to see university graduates sweeping mall floors or flippin' burgers.


    Hi mathgirl32,

    It is very difficult to find non-bias information on this subject through American resources...this is one of these topics that involves an agenda...either for or against...therefore the only reliable information is from independant sources...I would not put much faith in what you might read in America or Mexico on this issue...I would rather trust an independant report from an outside source who has nothing to gain either way.


    Personally, if you want to really improve the situation concerning low paying jobs...I'd go after all your corporations that are exporting those jobs...eg. NIKE who doesn't manufacture a single shoe in the US...stop buying their product.

    And the argument concerning the drain on the economy doesn't fly...every minimum wage job is a drain on the economy by the same standards.They don't pay enough taxes and sometimes not at all, their healthcare must be subsidised and their social security, etc...

    This is the reason you need an independant source...every argument against illegal immigrants is the same argument that can be used against every American with a legal sub-standard job.

    The fact remains...someone has to do these jobs so that others who wont can benefit from them. Or are you willing to go get your own apples and eggs from the orchard and farmer respectively? There are benefits to having someone else do that for you.

    I have personally gone out and bought eggs straight from the farmer...and slaughtered my own beef...are you willing to kill a cow everytime you want a steak...or do you like it all nicely packaged in the store?

    Hi l3lacklce,

    Thanks...


  8. #8
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    So tell the class please how you propose we halt it?
    Fine the employers. It's as simple as that. But that's kinda hard with Bush's head way up the corporations' asses.

    According to the Pew Hispanic Center ( http://pewhispanic.org/ - a Hispanics Rights Movement), out of the 2.5 million new jobs created last year, 1 million went to recently arrived Hispanics. 70% of them (that's 700,000 jobs!) were illegal. And who's suffering from this? The legal Hispanics.

    According to the US Labor Department, 50% of America's farm workers are illegal. The government knows it (very well!), but they don't do anything about it - that would cost votes, you see... or money from the corporations...

    ICE agents caught 245 illegal aliens working for Walmart when they checked a mere 60 Walmart stores. Walmart got to settle the case for $11 million - that's Walmart's revenue in 16 hours... big deal.

    Maybe I should have entered the US illegally - then I wouldn't have to pay taxes, then I could get my education for free, get free health care, get a drivers' license without any problem...


    Edit:

    The fact remains...someone has to do these jobs so that others who wont can benefit from them. Or are you willing to go get your own apples and eggs from the orchard and farmer respectively? There are benefits to having someone else do that for you.
    That's pure bull, Ega... do you really think there aren't enough legal Americans to work on farms? To clean toilets? To pick up the trash? To mow lawns?

    Let's say there are 10 landscape companies in town, all hard-working companies with decently-paid employees with decent benefits. An 11th company enters the market and hires illegals. They pay those illegals $5 an hour and don't have to give them any benefits. In a year, the other 10 companies go out of business (who wants to pay $50 to have their lawn mown when you can have it done for $25?). It's not that the 10 companies can't find anyone to work for them - it's that they can't do it legally. And that is very very sad. So now those 10 companies have two choices: either cease to exist (read: being punished for following the law), or hiring illegals themselves. That's a loose-loose situation, Ega.



  9. #9
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    Originally posted here by Egaladeist

    And the argument concerning the drain on the economy doesn't fly...every minimum wage job is a drain on the economy by the same standards.They don't pay enough taxes and sometimes not at all, their healthcare must be subsidised and their social security, etc...
    Your argument, here, is invalid. You say "every" minimum wage job is a drain on the economy. Let's ignore the fact that that is not true (student workers, kids living at home, people working part-time for extra income)...and go with your statement. By your reasoning, you are saying that because minimum wage jobs are already a drain on the economy, you can't use the argument that illegals (working minimum wage) are a drain on the economy.

    What???!

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  10. #10
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    Hi Negative,

    I am not suggesting that America should accept illegals...my argument is against the arguments raised that illegals pose an economic drain...which simply is not true...if they did not do these jobs then Americans would have to...and the drain would still be the same as those jobs would be of a low-paying nature anyways...resulting in the same arguments...that low-paying jobs are a drain on the economy...which again is true in every case where the overall cost exceeds the amount paid into.

    And I could make an argument that even that is not true...and anyone who has any knowledge of economics can attest to...if I give you $1000...and you in turn spend that $1000 nothing is lost...it is the reinvesting of the economy...even though I suffered a personal loss of $1000 it is far from lost...the only time you lose money is when it leaves your country...and doesn't come back...this is a net deficit...a loss...as long as the money remains and continues to circulate it is benefitting the economy!

    In local terms a community is hurt in the same fashion...when money " leaves " the community...someone's loss becomes someone else's gain.

    Eg

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