Kinda says it all

[morganlefay]

Wow...

dalek...that is a great article...although I havent the time to read the whole thing just yet.

it is the wounded who must live with the confounding mix of anonymity and exposure wrought by surviving a war

''Buddy,'' he said, ''I'm going to hurt the rest of my life.''

It has been suggested that the wounded are the hidden casualties of the Iraq war, stranded somewhere between our grief for the dead and a wartime patriotism best stirred by the belief that our troops are both productive and healthy

an average of nine soldiers have been injured per day

I still do not understand what they are doing there.....freedom, injustices in the world.....

Where was the US when the Ruwandian massacure was going on....oh yeah ...Ruwanda is a land locked country.....with limited natural resources.....and no oil!

Nothin there


MLF

[rapier57]

Some of us were wounded in ways other than just physical. Some wounds are visible, others aren't. In any case, we carry them the rest of our lives. Some of us actually found healing. Many didn't.

[bballad]

morganlefay: very good points....if iraq is for humanitrian/freedom reasons why are we not in the congo (they are selling pygmies as food on the street corners). Why are we allied with Ubeciistan (one of the worst humanitarian records in the world, far worse the husain). Nope thse reasons don't hold up. If its about terrorism why did we go after iraq(never a sponser of secular terrorist groups) instead of iran(sponser of verious groups) or saudi arabia (major sponser of Al Quida)? Hell why is it we ignored the weapons depos and secured the oil feilds?


Not much left but naked greed is there

[Evil Moo]

Originally posted here by dalek
And are you kidding me on the people who join the reserves knowing fully that they may be called up to the front lines, hah, at most a lot of them (due respect to those who actually do expect to be called up) are in it for the part time paycheck and the weekly campouts, or the one night a week get togethers.

If find that completely unacceptable. The reasons you gave for most people joining the Reserves are correct. However, they are signing an agreement with the Military. How on earth can you not expect someone to be compitant enough to know that violence and fighting may be involved? They train weekly for that exact puporse. Especially in times of war, how can someone not expect to serve? They sign a contract, an agreement, not a hand-out.

Don't confuse the two as well, Police Officers make a career choice, reservists do it for either furthering their education, or as a step to the professional ranks, a lot of reservists are already working at full time jobs, heck some reservists are probably active police officers who are probably ex service and figured they would like to keep in touch with the Military.

The same as applies above. They joined a fighting force. There is no difference. Last time I checked Police Officers carried weapons and routinely trained how to use them in violent and dangerous situations. Just because your motive to join wasn't to fight, doesn't mean you're ignorant or excusable to it. People get jobs to earn money even if they hate the occupation. However, just because they don't like the nature of the work doesn't mean they get a free pay-check. Pay & benefits is reciprical to the work agreed apon. It can't be more simplified than that.

Originally posted here by bballad
Evil Moo: The yare not bing used as reserves they are being used as regular army, 18month toures over see fallowed by a few months down then back for another tour...this is tearing their lives and families apart.

I'm from a military family. Born and raised in the US Marine Corps. My father has served tours of duty for years at a time when I was a child, and even in conflicts. His most recent tour of duty was Iraq itself. I grew up on military bases, and actually spent most of my life living outside of the US on them. I'm fully aware of what it is like to be left behind and have/see familys divided. I probably understand better than you what it's like when your friend tells you that his father won't be coming home, or when my parents notify me that the gentleman we had over for dinner the month prior won't be coming over again....

As to the Reserves, they are being used exactly as Reserves are intended to be used. When the standard force falls short in numbers, Reserves are used in place of them. Simple concept. Additionally, because Reserves have more relaxed training than full-issue, they usually undergo "re-freash" training for some time before actually encountering any real combat as well.

Talkign ot some of my recurter buddies, well you can get in now by gettign scores on the asvab that you should get by breathing....Now I doubt anyof you have taken the asvab, I scored a near perfect half drunk and sleep deprived...teh army y nesisity is accepting people who would have been considered to have faild it last year.

I did take the ASVAB actually. I scored nearly perfect aside from the automachanics portion (as I'm not big on cars.) Mind you, the ASVAB is not an IQ or intelligence test. It rates a person's basic strengths and helps guide what positions and duties they will be assigned should they join. Obviously superior scores in all areas will be more condusive to them wanting you to join, as you'll probably be good at anything they assign you.

[HTRegz]

Hey Hey,

I wasn't going to post... I figured I'd spare ya'll but now I have to post.... I can't believe some of the comments in this thread... Oh no... not 2000 soldiers... heaven forbid....

How about the iraqi body count ... Civilians alone are estimated between 26 and 30000 dead (source)... I've used this number first because you'll say that it's skewed and biased... so here's my next link

CNN

Public health experts have estimated that around 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died since the United States invaded Iraq in March last year.

Yes.... 100,000 civilians are dead because of this invasion.... yes that's right.. invasion...

Someone step up and smack Bush already.. How can you feel bad for 2000 Americans who are over there killing innocent civilians... Let's see.. I've seen 150K troops over there as the common belief.... and 100K civilians dead... That means that 2 out of every 3 soldiers have killed a civilian.... civilians are innocent.... So I'd say 2000 deaths isn't bad for the US... another 98,000 of those troops deserve to die.

Peace
HT

[Negative]

HT > I've been accused of being Anti-USA, and then when I moved I was accused of "switching sides". To make a long story short: you're one of those people that do not help the cause you think you're helping (you're just making it very VERY hard for anyone in that camp to be taken seriously - not to mention that what you say is very laughable, which makes it even harder!), and you're definitely not making it hard on the other side (they're going to welcome a clown character like you!).

Do you even realize what you're saying? I think it's fruggin time you start limiting yourself to tech discussion - let's hope (for those waiting for an answer) that you know what you're talking about in that field...

I've tried over and over to make a case for what is called "the left" in the US. It wasn't "the right" who burnt my ideas... it was people like you... trying to be "left"... but in the process being as frigging right as possible...

[Egaladeist]

Hi HT,

Personally I like your directness whether I agree with you or not...I don't like to have to read between the lines...you're like a frieght train going full speed...a boxer that doesn't pull his punches...

but Neg is right...comments like this...

another 98,000 of those troops deserve to die

do not help your argument...they actually hurt your argument.

Eg

[HTRegz]

Originally posted here by Negative
Do you even realize what you're saying? I think it's fruggin time you start limiting yourself to tech discussion - let's hope (for those waiting for an answer) that you know what you're talking about in that field...

I realize exactly what I'm saying... Americans whine when one of their own die... but that person was over there causing death... How anyone can support that is beyond me... I may lack tact... I'd be the first to agree with that... but I'm honest... and I'm fair... I can't believe that a society (such as the US) that still has states with the death penalty can be so against equality.. If someone kills a person in texas...people say "it's a shame those innocent people had to die" then the killer goes to court and is found guilty and put to death and then everyone says "Good.. they got what they deserved".. With the military it's the exact opposite... A soldier goes over to war... and kills an Iraqi civilian and the American public says "Good.. they got what they deserved".. then that soldier is killed and we hear "It's a shame that an innocent soldier died"... I don't understand this and would love for someone to explain this in a sane, logical way.. If they can I'll gladly stop posting... but since it's not possible to explain that in a sane and logical way I don't have to worry about it.

As far as limiting where I post... I don't think so.... Just because I'm the only member of this forum with a social conscience... just because I'm the only one that thinks the war in Iraq is nothing but injustice doesn't mean I should be silenced. You cry for your 2000 dead and continue to cheer as your war machine moves forward... I'll cry over the 100,000 dead... killed for nothing but oil. Those 2000 soldiers died because they accepted the mission of a war-mongering religious man seeking revenge... Those 100,000 civilians died because of where they were born... The 2000 had a choice... the 100,000 did not... Yet no one on this forum seems to realize that... All they see is 2000... 2000 of their own... Who cares who else dies in the process... as long as they account for and cry for their own... This makes the US nothing more than a nation of bigots... Nationalists to the Extreme... and none of you Americans seem to see a problem with that... That makes me sad... but the fact that 2000 murderers died doesn't... I'm sorry if that hurts the cause... I'm sorry if that's disrespectful but those American soldiers are murderers... and just like the killer in Texas deserves the death penalty.. so do they. Since when was the 00 rating something beyond fiction... since when did we license people to kill and say that some deaths are acceptable?

Eg: I'm glad you appreciate the directness... I'm nothing if I'm not honest and open... I'm also very strong in my beliefs and I believe in equality, justice and fair play... In hockey if two guys exchange punches... they both get 2 minutes (or 5 minutes).. If anything the instigator gets an extra 2 minutes... Here we're seeing the opposite... The instigator is getting off with two minutes while the other fighter is getting a game misconduct... If it were hockey people would be whining and booing, but because it's the American military it's allowed.. They instigated and now they are crying about their loses... Anyone who feels the loss wasn't deserved is a shame to humanity... Do I feel bad for their families... maybe a little... do I feel bad for the soldiers... not in the least... they chose the life and now they are feeling the results of it.

If the roles in this war were reversed, every American on this site would be whining about foul play (What the US is doing here is no different than what Al Qaeda did on 9/11... it's a plain and simple terrorist attack)... I just don't understand why no one else sees that.... I don't know how anyone can justify the actions of the US.... and I feel ashamed to be associated with those that do.

Peace,
HT

[Striek]

<Hitler> I'm going to kill 6 million Jews
<Hitler> ...and one clown
<Churchill> Why the clown?
<Hitler> See? Nobody cares about the Jews!

Neg, I hope the response you gave was based on the manner in which HTRegz replied, and not on the subject matter of his reply. Granted, it was a very offensive and strongly worded reply, but this is our precious cosmos, the forum which you have asked people not to give points in, based on free speech grounds. HT has every right to post whatever he feels he believes in here. That's the whole purpose of this forum.

Now, as for the subject matter of the post, I highly doubt anyone is apathetic to the hundred thousand dead Iraqi civilians. But they aren't coming home to state funerals, flags draped over their corpses, and grieving parents and spouses. We don't notice the impact of civilian deaths over there nearly as much as we notice the impact it has on families over here. Therefore, we pay more attention to it.

Personally, I honour the Iraqi civilians far more than Allied soldiers. They are there, fighting tooth and nail for a better country, living in the conditions that some are trying to improve. They live with a greater fear of death and in far worse conditions than do allied soldiers. They struggle every day to feed themselves, while two thirds of the allied force sleeps in guarded bunkers on their soil, well fed and well rested. They struggle every day with a hatred and with ethnic divisions that have taken decades, if not centuries, to create, that we demand solved in mere years. Much as I consider Nazi holocaust survivors heroes, so do I the Iraqi civilians.

But we don't relate to the civilian condition in Iraq like we did the Jews in Germany.

No, I don't believe that we have any right to be there. I don't believe that a military solution was the best solution. War is the continuation of politics by other means. I don't believe that all those other means were exhausted. It was done too hastily. It seemed to me the whole thing built up in mere months in my memory. Suddenly the Americans invaded. It was done too quickly, and not enough time was given for other solutions. And yes, I am well aware of the UN's refusal to ratify U.S. resolutions, which eventually led to the United States' unilateral invasion. Regardless of how impatient the Americans were, they did not give the matter enough time.

But aye, there's the rub... Suddenly Iraq refuses to let weapons inspectors in. Knowing what we knew then, what possible reason could there have been, save for the manufacture of WMD's? Faced with such a threat, a military invasion was the only alternative, regardless of whether or not it was justified.

In short, we shouldn't be there. But the world is a far better place without Saddam. Just like the world is a beter place without Texan serial killers. The right thing to do is not always the moral thing to do. (Whether or not we'd be there without the oil is a whole other debate for a whole other thread)

But as a whole, I agree with you HT. If we are to grieve the loss of 2000 allied soldiers, we should as well grieve, and more so, the loss of the hundred thousand Iraqi civilians. Thier loss is incalculably more than ours. To ignore that loss is an insult to everything that we, as humans, aspire to one day become.

[The Texan]

HT, why do u think 98,000 more soldiers deserve to die? i understood ur logic mostly to that point but when you said that, it was just irrational... there was no justification in that statement! they are just doing their job for our country whether they like it or not. You must agree that this world is a better place without Saddam.