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  1. #1
    Senior Member gore's Avatar
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    SS Gentoo

    This probably isn't some huge secret that although I think Gentoo Linux has potential to be a decent distro, I can't stand their Nazi user base. Compared to some Gentoo users I look like a casual user of SUSE. that's sad. This post isn't here to spark anything but to dig up answers from the Gentoo users of AO. I know you exist because most of you don't like me.

    Anyway I came across this today as I was going through my usual news reads:

    http://linux.coconia.net/gentoo/index.html

    Why does this have something bad about gentoo if he's just trying to help people install by making a script? Well, here are some examples:


    A few months ago, I was given a set of Linux distributions which included Gentoo 2005.0. I attempted to install Gentoo, but quickly gave up. This was due to not being able to access the full documentation. I entered the command links /mnt/cdrom/docs/handbook/html/index.html as suggested in the text that appears just after the CD boots. This provided what appeared to be documentation. Unfortunately, having never used the program links before, I did not correctly discover how to navigate the pages. I made the assumption that one used the navigation line

    [ << ] [ < ] [ Home ] [ > ] [ >> ]

    to navigate the document. However, this was not quite correct. As a result, I only found the index pages. Since then, I have learned that you use the arrow keys to navigate to the various links within the body of a page, then hit enter while over such a link, in order to be sent to wherever that link is pointing. At the time, this was not at all apparent, and without instructions, it was pointless continuing with the installation (actually, I should be thankful that I was using 2005.0, as 2005.1 "accidentally" provides the wrong address for the documentation).
    OK so he had a problem using Links, no big deal, everyone doesn't know how to use every browser on Earth.


    This is something even I wouldn't flame the poor guy for. Hell just a few days ago I helped someone with a host name issue on here even though it's probably common Linux knowledge. This is why I wrote the install tutorials that I wrote, there are in fact people on this planet who want to try software but the instructions just don't work.



    Anyway, after giving up on the Gentoo install, I proceeded to install Mandriva 10.2 and Debian 3.1 and was quite impressed with them both.

    Some time later, I visited the Gentoo web-site, and found the installation manual. Armed with a copy of the manual, I figured I would give the installation another go. After a fair bit of digging around, I managed to get a working desktop. About this time Gentoo 2005.1 was released. With my 2005.0 experience, I felt it would be relatively easy to record the commands used in the installation of 2005.1 and write the process as a script (or set of scripts). This is the result.

    One surprising thing I discovered along the way, is that some of the Gentoo group have an interest in "accidentally" making the installation process much more difficult than it need be. Let me relate the following incident.



    In Gentoo 2005.0, the command emerge --usepkg kde installs the KDE desktop. However, this command does not work in 2005.1. To find out what gives, I registered with the Gentoo forum forums.gentoo.org. After some time I was told that a new command emerge --usepkg kde-meta had been introduced. Why a new command? Why not the natural old command, which after all, now has no purpose at all? I thought this rather strange, but stranger things were yet to come.

    That's just stupid. you go from making a command that works and seems right to one that has -meta added to it? WTF for? Were to many people installing it without trouble so you had to stop this so ALL of the user base can be dick heads who think they are better than other Linux users because they managed to think incorrectly that installing an OS makes you something?


    You think that's bad? Wait, it gets worse:


    I imagined that a lot of people would be interested in this information and started a thread about it at the forum. To my great surprise, it was deleted (well, actually, it was moved from the installation section, to some hidden corner of their site). So I started another thread, with the same result. This time I was informed that the thread had been moved because the topic had been dealt with in some other post (that had also been quite deliberately hidden away from public view). I repeated this process some 7 or 8 times. Then they banned me.
    He tries helping out some other people who may want to try Gentoo out and running into the problem he had and his post gets deleted? Then he gets banned? WTF? Seig Heil Gentoo...


    Think about it, the Gentoo people were so desperate to remove my posts from view, that they hid 7 threads, using 7 times the disk space, rather than have one visible to the public. Actually, the last thread was locked and it quietly sunk out of sight.
    Why am I not surpised? They locked his thread so it could have no more replys...



    Since it was doomed to be lost among unvisited/unread pages, the administration felt no need to move or delete it, as they had the other threads. Besides leaving the locked thread there for a few hours was "proof they were not involved in censorship."
    Where in the hell have I heard this before..... AH yes, Hitler. First they won't let you speak, then the next thing you know you're in "CD Bake Oven" hell. Only the chosen race shall install this OS.



    So the Gentoo forum administration succeeded in hiding all threads related to the correct installation of KDE.

    How helpful of him.




    Some good did come from my persistence, however, as someone added the correct command to the Gentoo KDE installation page the next day. I know this because I saved copies of the page on successive days (just before, and just after, it was added). When last I looked, it had not been added to the installation manual.
    Start operation cover up.




    There is plenty of evidence that certain Gentoo people are deliberately (and surreptitiously) crippling their product. Why might this be? Well, for an answer to that, you will have to ask them.

    Wow, this is all even weirder than I at first imagined. I visited Ubuntu's forum, ubuntuforums.org, and started a thread which essentially just pointed to this page. Guess what? Yes, it was deleted. I re-posted it in another section and guess what? Yes, it was deleted again. In the end, I must have posted it there some 8 or 9 times, and 8 or 9 times, it is was deleted. I was then temporarily banned for, you guessed it, "spamming".

    And I have just been banned from www.linuxforums.org/forum/ for posting it there just ONCE!
    Seig Heil, Sie ist nicht gut.



    Other forums that have banned me for pointing to this page are knoppix.net and linuxquestions.org. In case you are wondering, all the mentioned forums (except for linuxquestions.org) banned me before I added the section on Javascript movies.

  2. #2
    I tried Gentoo a little while back, as i was curious about what i could be potentially missing out on.
    I figured heck if i can install Debain drunk then i can easily install this right.
    Heck i was wrong, a few hours latter and a million errors latter i gracefully gave up and told myself never again.

    and thus This would explain why i have never taken any real interest in Gentoo. were as put me in front of a Debian box and i'm a happy camper.

    f2b

  3. #3
    Shrekkie Reloaded Raiden's Avatar
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    I have to admit that such actions and behavior are a part of the gentoo community and actually i regret it too, since
    in my experience and believe the gentoo-forums always helped me very well.

    The reason why i work with slackware on my laptop since a year and a half already is exactly the problem what gore and that guy point out, namely the fact that they constantly change configuration-file-names, directories, comands, etc etc ...

    Concerning that "kde-meta" thingie, that he could have resolved easily with "emerge search kde" but thats a whole other discussion maybe.

    All of this doesn't have to say i don't like gentoo anymore, on the contrary i still have it runninng on several boxes, but i have to agree gentoo is digging its own trap, with all those continuous changes.

    Cheers.

  4. #4
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    I have to admit I've never installed Debian. I do hear a lot of good from it though, so I will, someday, set up a vmware box and install it and check it out.. Anyway.

    It's hard to believe that this webpage is serious. It all sounds like satire. I mean, honestly, I can't use links, either. Hell, the first time I installed Gentoo, I printed out the whole handbook.

    He tries helping out some other people who may want to try Gentoo out and running into the problem he had and his post gets deleted? Then he gets banned? WTF? Seig Heil Gentoo...
    Yes, because he posted in the wrong section of the forum. http://forums.gentoo.org is a highly organized board and the moderators' job is to make sure threads go in the proper forum. An informational thread, for instance, should go in "Docs, Tips & Tricks", not in "Installing Gentoo", which is, as explained in the forum description, only for threads asking questions relating to the installation. The whole process is very efficient and I have never once seen a moderator **** up. The only thing which I feel they could do, but I don't know how busy they are, is to PM the author saying "your thread is now *there*".

    If I were Ubuntu, Gentoo, or whatever, I wouldn't link to that website either.

    linux.coconia.net

    GENTOO 2005.1 Installation Script/Walk-Through.
    Javascript Movies: Example - World Trade Center - Visible Pre-Detonations. (1.9MB)
    Javascript Movies: Example - World Trade Center - Rows of Explosions. (1.6MB)
    Javascript Movies: Example - World Trade Center Seven Demolition. (1.5MB)
    So, what exactly is in the cpio archive, gentoo.igz?
    Remixing those 14 Debian CDs as 2 DVDs.
    Great 9/11 site. Best I've seen.
    This is what's displayed. Honestly, why link to *that* and not directly to the script page? And why take seriously someone who seems to not take you seriously?

    As far as the command : emerge --usepkg kde
    Okay.. He's using the --usepkg option, meaning he's not compiling it himself. Not everyone has several hours or an ultra-powerful computer.

    As far as KDE : this happened a little while back, a few months ago. Originally, you had one meta-package : "kde", which would pull up all the other packages (kde-base, kde-env, kde-admin, etc etc), so you'd have a full installation of KDE.

    Here's what's in portage now if you look up kde and kde-meta :
    Code:
    * kde-base/kde
         Available versions:  3.3.2 3.4.1 3.4.2 3.4.3 [M]3.5_beta1 [M]3.5.0_beta2 [M]3.5.0_rc1 [M]3.5.0
         Installed:           3.4.3
         Homepage:            http://www.kde.org/
         Description:         KDE - merge this to pull in all non-developer kde-base/* packages
    
    * kde-base/kde-meta
         Available versions:  3.4.1 3.4.2 3.4.3 [M]3.5_beta1 [M]3.5.0_beta2 [M]3.5.0_rc1 [M]3.5.0
         Installed:           none
         Homepage:            http://www.kde.org/
         Description:         kde - merge this to pull in all kde packages
    "emerge kde" will give you the bigger packages, kde-base, etc etc, while emerge kde-meta will give you all the smaller packages (khangman, ksnapshot, kuikview, kicker, etc etc).

    This was pretty well documented and users were warned about this, on the Forums, in the Gentoo Weekly Newsletter, and on the Gentoo website itself, as far as I recall (but I may be wrong).

    Also, I notice that he does not follow the handbook. He does not create a separate boot partition.. I'm not surprised Gentoo didn't link to it, but he was free to put it in the gentoo-wiki, which is unofficial and still as widely used.

    Overall, I'm rather surprised by the tone at the beginning, which is all-righteous, as though the user could do no wrong.
    *shrug*
    Well, I'm gonna go unmerge kde and emerge kde-meta now..
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  5. #5
    Senior Member gore's Avatar
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    Man I've been looking for this for a LONG time now.

    THE HARDEST Linux distro:


    http://hobbingen.uni-muenster.de/dettus/dettuxx/

    Warning that link doesn't work hardly at all.


    Description: Billed as 'the world's nastiest distribution' by its developer, Dettu[Xx] Linux is not for the newbie and probably not for the intermediate user either. This distribution boots from floppies and the mounting of partitions has to be done manually. Thomas Dettbarn writes: 'Dettu[Xx] is a distribution aimed for the REALLY masochistic Linux-geeks out there'. We think that says it all.


    Supposedly only 10 people have actually been able to install it. Makes Gentoo stage 1 seem like a Mandrake install.


    Dettu[Xx] Linux :

    http://public.www.planetmirror.com/pub/dettuxx/

    "alright guys! we got more than 10 installations worldwide! *whoopie*. Microsoft should better watch out. Dettu[Xx] is taking control."

    "hey guys! i was on a lanparty this weekend, and a friend installed dettu[xx] on his computer. it took him not more than 12 hours to set up an runable x11, that is a new record. if anyone can do it faster, write me a mail."


    "Dettu[Xx] is a distribution aimed for the REALLY masochistic linux-geeks out there, the ones who think Rocklinux is too lame."

    ROCK Linux is where Gentoo stole the idea of doing a stage 1 install. And of course, Gentoo eats ass when it comes to hard installs. I've yet to hear of more than 10 people on this planet who have gotten this to install. I like the guy's attitude though.

    Shrekkie, remember when I said I was looking for a distro that would show you Gentoo is no way shape or form close to "most control" ? And no way shape or form "The one you'll learn the most from" ? Well there it is tough guy, I DARE you to install it.

  6. #6
    Senior Member gore's Avatar
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    The stuff to help you get it installed. These are the only install instructions you get:

    http://public.www.planetmirror.com/p...on024/doc.html




    1. download the disks.
    2. boot your computer with disk1 and disk2.
    3. use fdisk/mkfs/mkswap as ever you want to
    4. mount your root-partion onto /mnt
    5. mount all the other partions under /mnt where you want them
    6. replace disk1 into your computer, and mount it to /mnt/mnt
    7. (cd /mnt/mnt ; tar cvf - *) | (cd /mnt ; tar xv )
    8. umount /mnt
    9. put disk3 into your computer
    10. cd /mnt ; tar xvf /dev/fd0 -M
    11. change disk, if necessary
    12. tar xvfI basesystem.tar.bz2
    13. use joe to edit your /mnt/etc/fstab and /mnt/etc/lilo.conf
    14. /mnt/sbin/lilo -v -C /mnt/etc/lilo.conf -r /mnt
    15. cd / ; umount /mnt (donnot forget to umount everythin below /mnt first)
    16. umount -av
    17. exit

    your computer should boot now from your harddrive. log in as root, and do whatever you want to do.

    then you should try to
    1. get into the internet
    2. get the sources for the kernel, install them and run make menuconfig (no, you wont be satisfied, but that gives you alle the symlinks needed, when you want to compile something)
    3. get the sources for gcc, compile it
    4. get the sources for the textutils, compile them


    as long as you are not satisfied with the installed kernel on the bootdisk, just compile a new one on a computer of your choice. Mount the bootdisk to /mnt and copy the fresh kernel to /mnt/boot together with the System.map file. Enter lilo -v -r /mnt. Cheer a lot, and then dance.


    The known problems are:
    - youll have to manually mount everything after booting up
    - there are NO init-scripts yet
    - there are NO shutdown-scripts yet
    - the only way to shutdown your computer is to umount everything with mount / -o ro,remount and umount -avrf a couple of times and wait until your harddrive gets quiet.
    anyway, youll make it. bye!

  7. #7
    Shrekkie Reloaded Raiden's Avatar
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    Damn it gore. You got me here ....

    But i'll take your challenge with pleasure, but give me some time since its very busy atm for me.

    Cheers.

  8. #8
    Now im really curios what Dettu looks like, gore you're the linux master, install it and take a screenshot with a camera and post it :-)
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  9. #9
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    That looks vaguely amusing. It's sort of like the INTERCAL of Linux distros then, isn't it.. ?
    I particularly like his http://public.www.planetmirror.com/p...reenshots.html screenshot section ...

    Just like Raiden -- I'll take the challenge! More fun than installing Debian, I'm sure. I'm bound to learn something here... Haha, and I thought LFS was a bitch.

    Gentoo, by the way, just modified its handbook so that stage1 and stage2 intalls are gone. stage3 is now the default install. The stage1 and stage2 were only there to seed stage3 installs and to avoid a bug, which is now gone. Gentoo doesn't aim at making it harder.. I honestly found it easier to install Gentoo than I did installing Red Hat (because once inside Red Hat, I had no clue what to do!). The handbook gives very clear and detailed instructions...

    [edit : found a better link : http://www.dettus.net/dettuxx/ ]
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  10. #10
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    A few errors in the instructions...

    8. umount /mnt/mnt

    12. tar xvfI basesystem.tar.bz2 ### this is a capital 'i'


    13. use joe to edit your /mnt/etc/fstab and /mnt/etc/lilo.conf
    14. /mnt/bin/lilo -v -C /etc/lilo.conf -r /mnt

    Still working on 14 here, but I suspect it's because I had an odd partitioning. Trying with everything on one partition first.. I'm really not used to LILO.
    Definitions: Hacker vs. Cracker
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