When is stealing not really stealing?

[OverdueSpy]

I guess these guys have a countersuit against the government for Insurance Fraud. Time to fire more judges for being to darn stupid to hold his/her post. When will our judiciary system pull their heads out of the sand and get a clue? Sure there are laws that say you cannot steal, be it public or private property, but these idiot judges seem to think that there should be a law stating that the government has to identify, categorize, and place a monetary value on every square inch of the state, or it's ok loot at will. Ridiculous!

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Two men who stole Native American rock carvings from a Nevada mountainside dodged punishment when a U.S. appeals court ruled Tuesday prosecutors did not properly document the value of the carvings.

A jury found John Ligon and Carroll Mizell guilty of excavating the carvings, known as petroglyphs, from the mountain in Reno, but they sought acquittal because the prosecution did not present evidence of the petroglyphs' value.

A district court denied their motion, but the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco said Tuesday the men should be acquitted as the government never presented a report estimating the retail value of the petroglyphs at $800-$900.

"It is clear that Ligon and Mizell stole the petroglyphs. It is equally clear that the petroglyphs had a market value." William Fletcher wrote for a three-judge panel.

"But the government did not introduce that report into evidence, or indeed anything else that might have served as evidence of 'value'," he wrote. "We therefore are constrained to reverse the district court's denial."

[nihil]

Well OverdueSpy I will lock horns with you on this one.

1. The first two courts were right, in that objets d'art of this nature cannot have a "true value" assigned to them. They are unique and therefore priceless, it would be both crass and philistine to think otherwise.

2. The first two courts were wrong, as the sentence should have been 25 - Life.............it is high time we stamped out this cultural vandalism is it not?

3. The appeal court was wrong, as it was a technicality regarding items that do not have a logical, assignable technical value?

Hell, next thing we will be fining people for murder like it was a traffic offense?

4. The argument was spurious as the said items were not, nor never have been for sale.

[Relyt]

"SAN FRANCISCO" nuff said.

cheers

[nihil]

Relyt old chap, I think I understand what you are saying, but we have the same problem over here.............lawyers are out to get "a result" rather than justice (I don't wonder the poor cow wears a blindfold, she must have sensed it coming?).............and the courts are too busy either being "politically correct" or upholding the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law.

Sad really?

[|3lack|ce]

Weird instances there - since the crime occurred on tribal grounds, the tribe can opt to prosecute/persecute the individuals according to tribal law. It's quite odd they didn't. Had the two men been caught in the act of the crime, the tribal police could have legally shot and killed them with no legal reprocussions. I disagree that this was a frivolous lawsuit - something of historical, sentimental, and monetary value was taken from the tribe. For that the two men should be punished. The fact that the judge threw the case out on a (stupid IMHO) technicality just shows what kind of moronic court system we have in the US these days.

Really scary stuff about Indian Reservations:
1. Tribal law dictates. The US constitution and laws do not. You are at their will and pleasure when on their land - much as if you were in a different country, without embassies. The fact that the tribe chose to let the State handle things means that this particular tribe for whatever reason had faith in the State government to rectify the problem. I seriously doubt it will go so well the next time something like this happens.

2. Not one rock shall be moved, one twig cut or carved, nor one animal touched or killed unless it be by the permission of the tribal elders when on reservation land. They ain't kidding folks. They can kill you for breathing their air and it's legal as church on Sunday. There's no 'cruel and unjust punishment' law there either, and they can be quite creative in determining how to deal with idiots who wander their lands.

[Relyt]

Hey Nihil,

Hope all is well.


That article is a classic example of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (San Fran). They're not even on the same planet.

A normal Citizen would say: It was proven that they stole the Carvings therefore award the appropriate punishment.

The 9th Circuit Court: We agree that they stole the Carvings however the prosecutors did not properly document the value of the carvings. Therefore we will let them go to teach the prosecutors a lesson.



They're about as smart as a box of rocks. The crooks stole national treasures for goodness sake!

[Egaladeist]

Very nicely said all. Da@n Cosmos...

[nihil]

Hi Relyt I am fine thanks, I hope you and yours are the same

This is an interesting topic to me as it covers legal protection of ancient artifacts, objets d'art and items of cultural and historical significance.

The 9th Circuit Court: We agree that they stole the Carvings however the prosecutors did not properly document the value of the carvings. Therefore we will let them go to teach the prosecutors a lesson.

Too many political, rather than professional appointments my friend

How it should go is the scum get 25-Life then the appeals reduce that to 3 months, because the crime was obviously committed, but the value (therefore punishment) not ascertained.

So they do 3 months with 30 minute 100% hydrofluoric acid baths every 12 hours?

I am not a nice person: http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic804.htm

Basically we are talking p1$$ poor jurisprudence. If a case is proven, as this was, the only thing an appeal court should be able to do would be to adjust sentence. The case remains proven nonetheless?

We are not protecting our history or our heritage, and stupid results like this do not help. Well I suppose next time they will go for $50 million (you could not argue it) and get the 25-Life

Funny World we live in my friend?

[Relyt]

We'd get more time if we didn't come to a complete stop at a stop sign!

I'm sure the Dept of the Interior will get involved since they have authority over all the tribal lands etc. And as Black Ice had mentioned, they are doggon lucky the tribal police didn't catch them. The outcome would be completely different.

I'm not so sure we're speaking out enough about the way the judical system is such a mockery of the spirit of the law.

Maybe we should take back control of the government, laws, etc.

cheers

We're almost doing fine. Wife and I were rehearsing for WWE's Monday Night Raw and after she dropped a DDT on me I did a Pile Driver on her and now we have to have surgery on her neck. Just kidding about the wrestling. But she did have a large box of soap fall off the shelf and tweak her neck. So we most likely will have to have some surgery on one of the disks.

[Evil Moo]

I don't even understand how that argument is relevent in dissmissing the crime. The offense was proven--without dispute. At most, I can see a sentence being "altered" because without value, the severity of the crime cannot be measured. That statement within itself though, is absurd in actually excusing ANY crime--whether it be cultural theft or pilfering a pack of gum.

However, just because something may not have monetary value, does that mean it is totally worthless and not subect to other qualities? I find it simular to what Nihil said about murders being trivialized. Perhaps now I can go on all of those wanton rampages of slaughter that I've dreamt about. After all, you can't place value on a human's life, no?