Were they right to leave him?

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Thread: Were they right to leave him?

  1. #1
    AO Guinness Monster MURACU's Avatar
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    Were they right to leave him?

    This is something I have major problems with.

    bbc source

    Climber's Everest decision agony

    Mr Sharp died as he made his descent
    A double amputee who conquered Everest has spoken of the agonising decision not to help a man who died on the mountain.
    Experienced climber David Sharp, 34, of Guisborough, Teesside, was on his way down from the world's highest mountain when he got into difficulties.
    New Zealander Mark Inglis, said his party saw Mr Sharp as they climbed the 29,028ft (8,500m) peak.
    He said there was nothing they could do for him.

    Mr Inglis, 47, last week became the first double amputee to reach the top of Everest. His legs were amputated below the knee after he suffered frostbite during an expedition in 1982.

    Third climb
    Speaking to the Close Up programme on New Zealand television, Mr Inglis said: "The trouble is that at 8,500m (27,887ft) it is extremely difficult to keep yourself alive, let alone keep anyone else alive.
    "It was like 'What do we do?' We couldn't do anything. He had no oxygen, no proper gloves, things like that.
    "On that morning, over 40 people went past that young Brit. I was one of the first."
    Mr Sharp, who had climbed alone, was on his third climb of Everest when he apparently ran out of oxygen about 984ft (300m) below the summit as he made his descent.
    Other climbers found his body in a cave last week, 1,000ft (305m) below the summit.
    To put a counter point to here is another recent story.
    dead everest climber alive

    'Dead' Everest climber 'is alive'

    Dozens of people have perished attempting to scale Everest
    An Australian man believed to have died as he descended Mount Everest has been found alive.
    Lincoln Hall, 50, was presumed to have died on Thursday when he was left behind by his Sherpas after he started hallucinating and refusing to move.
    But another climber found Mr Hall still alive on Friday, triggering a large-scale rescue effort.

    Duncan Chessell, whose company DCXL is helping in the rescue, said Mr Hall remained in "grave danger".
    "It's going to be a miracle if he can get out of it. He is in bad shape," he said.
    The incident came amid continuing controversy over whether a New Zealand climber, Mark Inglis, was right to leave behind British climber David Sharp, who died on Mount Everest earlier this month.

    Tea and oxygen

    Mr Hall, an experienced climber, reached the summit of Everest on Thursday.
    Another member of the climb, German Thomas Weber, died shortly before reaching the summit, according to a statement issued by expedition leader Alexander Abramov.
    Mr Hall became weak as he and two Sherpas descended, and then became incoherent and semi-conscious, according to Mr Chessell, who had been informed of events by radio.
    The Sherpas tried to move Mr Hall down the mountain, but after several hours' effort and running out of oxygen, they were told by their expedition leader to leave him behind, Mr Chessell said, speaking in Australia.

    Mr Abramov's statement said Mr Hall had died as he descended.

    But on Friday, an American climber - Dan Mazur - came across Mr Hall and found he had survived the night, at more than 8,000m (24,000ft) and was still alive.
    After giving him hot tea and oxygen, a radio call was made to Mr Abramov, who ordered an urgent rescue mission.

    Mr Chessell warned that it was too early to say if the rescue would be successful.
    "It's a big risk for them to go up there. It will take at least three days to get him back to safety," he said.

    \"America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.\"
    \"The reason we are so pleased to find other people\'s secrets is that it distracts public attention from our own.\"
    Oscar Wilde(1854-1900)

  2. #2
    Senior Member nihil's Avatar
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    My first comment would be that no one forces these people to indulge in this highly dangerous, very expensive, and totally pointless activity.

    It is a fact that above a certain altitude you enter what is known as the "dead zone" ...........get into trouble there, and it will most likely live up to its name.

    You are best advised to go with a party, rather than going alone............it is a bit like hunting, most people who get attacked/killed by bears are on their own at the time?

    The other people may seem callous, well anyone doing that sort of thing just has to be on the right wing of the egocentric party? You should also remember that they probably are not qualified to assist and almost certainly are not equipped to do so...............you travel light at those altitudes.

    They are working to a tight schedule that they must stick to, or they will probably die also. Not only are they under extreme physical stress, the climate is treacherous and changes very rapidly.

    Whilst I have every sympathy for friends and relatives and am sorry that the guy died, he made the decision to do what he did, and he suffered the consequences.

    Just my thoughts on it

  3. #3
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    the average human believes " to save oneself is the ultimate goal" and that's perfectly human. to be just human isn't exceptionally pretty

    to risk one's life to save another is the mark of a noble human.

    i believe that i would be noble but i haven't been put through that test. i've put myself in harms way for another but never put my life on the line to do it. so these guys wern't noble but there's nothing that says one has to be. why does one have to be more than human?
    Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”

  4. #4
    AO's Resident Redneck The Texan's Avatar
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    I agree with the above, im sorry the guy died but it was his choice to climb, he should have known not to EXPECT help from strangers... you know human nature "look out for number one", self preservation. It was a risk and he choose to take it. Would I have helped him? I would like to think so but I cant say for sure since I havent climbed Everest.
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  5. #5
    AO Soccer Mom debwalin's Avatar
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    Sir Edmund Hillary's opinion:

    "Human life is far more important than just getting to the top of a mountain," Hillary was quoted as saying in an interview with New Zealand Press Association.

    ....

    "There have been a number of occasions when people have been neglected and left to die and I don't regard this as a correct philosophy," he told the Otago Daily Times.

    "I think the whole attitude toward climbing Mount Everest has become rather horrifying. The people just want to get to the top," he told the newspaper.

    Hillary told New Zealand Press Association he would have abandoned his own pioneering climb to save another's life.

    "It was wrong if there was a man suffering altitude problems and was huddled under a rock, just to lift your hat, say 'good morning' and pass on by," he said.

    He said that his expedition, "would never for a moment have left one of the members or a group of members just lie there and die while they plugged on towards the summit.
    http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/0524EverestDrama24-ON.html

    I'm glad there's still someone in the world who values another human life. I find the attitude and idea that you'd just pass someone by who was still alive to continue your journey to the peak disgusting. There were over 40 people in the party that passed him. Surely between them, they had enough oxygen to spare to get back down the mountain? I would love to see them all charged with manslaughter, because it's what it boils down to if you don't even attempt to help someone who is dying.
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  6. #6
    AO Guinness Monster MURACU's Avatar
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    Hi Deb,
    That is exactly my point. The people who left him weren't in the situtation describe above by the others. They didnt try to help, not because it would have added an unacceptable risk to their lives but because they wanted to get to the top of a hill. I am sure that if it was the army team who found him they would have abandoned their climb to try to get him home.
    \"America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.\"
    \"The reason we are so pleased to find other people\'s secrets is that it distracts public attention from our own.\"
    Oscar Wilde(1854-1900)

  7. #7
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    While I agree with almost all of the opinions above, I would also like to note that lots and lots of work goes into preparing for such an expedition like this one... and its incredibly expensive to attempt this!

    Add to that, the people who are attempting to do this would have to have incredible determination and resolve... I can see this type of person evaluating the others plight and recognising the same steely determination... Almost as though they might die for this one chance to 'live their dream'.

    I agree with Tedob1. To save the man would have been very noble. I would have tried to do that (except the fact I don't believe myself to be crazy enough to attempt something like this in the first place).

  8. #8
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    Hey Hey,

    Self preservation is man's greatest instinct... While it's easy for anyone here to sit and criticize these people for their actions... none of us can guarentee that we would have acted any differently. It all comes down to the boyscout motto "Be Prepared". This man had made the climb in the past... he should have been better prepared... I'd like to say I would have helped him... but those are extreme conditions... This was an experienced climber and he was out of oxygen, that's how little "extra" they carry with them... He lacked gloves...obviously something happened to leave him in this condition... but that's the risk you take when you partake in extreme sports...

    To say those people should be charged with manslaughter is going a little overboard... I've always had a problem with "Good Samaritan" laws... there are too many unknown variables... To say they should have saved him, is like saying I should run into a burning building to carry people out... They are unsafe conditions and I can't see a reason to put your life in danger to save another... I'm just waiting for someone to mention the military, police or firefighters here.... So let's answer those in advance..

    i) Military -- You all know my stance on this so I'll keep it short.. They don't put their lives on the line to save lives.... The majority of recent military action has been invasions, not defensives... The last time the military really put themselves on the line was WWII (IMO) and in most ways those were more "chivalrous" times...

    ii) Police -- There are some cops that put themselves on the line... but they are few and far between, and you can find people in every walk of life that are willing to... Most cops are in it for one of two reasons a) An easy ride to a pension... b) They're power hungry

    iii) Firefighters -- This group is the one group that definately puts their lives on the line to save others... However even these fine young men and women have their limits. There are times when they reach their peak and won't put themselves in further danger to save others...

    Now... I've purposely been disrespectful here... Many of you are getting ready to push that quote button or maybe just reply.... you're getting ready to bash me, saying I can't attack the Military and Cops because I haven't been there... Well... you can't judge those men and women on the slopes because you haven't been there :P

    The simple point is that everyone here can say they would have done the noble thing (and that's exactly what it is a noble thing, a act above and beyond) but who really would have... I've pulled people off each other in fights, gotten in between fist fights and fights with weapons, I'm not afraid to lend a helping hand... even hurt myself in the process... but the simple fact is it comes down to this..

    If you take myself and a stranger and put us at a table... You look at me and say "Here are two guns, the first gun has 1 bullet in it.... the second one may or may not have bullets in the first two chambers, I'm starting with him, pick a gun"... I'm going to pick the first gun... And I bet most people on this site would... I bet the majority of the world would.... There's a reason why we don't have russian roulette in our casino's... There are some things people don't want to take chances with.... and their life is one of them.

    Peace,
    HT
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  9. #9
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    The other climbers were in so shape or form obligated to helping him out. How are they beholden to him in any extent? They were climbers--civilians; not public servants or heroes.

    Give up your dream--that one chance, months and months of planning, your hard earned & spent money, possibly your life? For what, a chance that you might--maybe--almost save a (nearly dead) ill-prepared person whom fully accepted the risks before-hand?

    Life is hard--especially for those whom arn't prepared--particularly in places as volitile and dangerous as Mt. Everest.
    \"Greatness only comes at great risk.\" ~ Personal/Generic

  10. #10
    AO Ancient: Team Leader
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    I don't suppose anyone here knows the first rule of First Aid then...

    Do not become the second victim...

    Quite simple really. Under the conditions near the peak of Everest the slightest deviation from plan or use of the meagre supplies you can even afford to carry will make you a victim. Sorry folks, but had anyone stopped to help there would be two dead bodies to drag down the hill... That would be pointless...

    HT: I've "been there" so I'll pipe up... You forget _all_ the times the military are used in disasters to save lives and those soldiers do put their lives on the line to save others and if you think about it the military is used far more often for rescue/humanitarian operations than it is in wars.
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
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