From Sysadmins To Soccer Moms
Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 50

Thread: From Sysadmins To Soccer Moms

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    1,100

    Thumbs down From Sysadmins To Soccer Moms

    We've seen a wave of legislation being passed and proposed the past several years that have sought to bring further regulation to both receiving information from, and publishing information to, the internet. Whether it be attempts at mandating age verification for materials "not suitable to minors", or even legislation that would require ISP-level filtering of content, the end result would be the same: a chilling effect on the free exchange of information and ideas.

    The vast majority of this legislation has been spurred under the guise of protecting minors. A common argument in Senate Subcommittee meetings is that parents simply aren't as technologically sophisticated as their children, and lack the understanding and ability to properly protect and monitor their own computers. Truth be told, this is probably a very valid argument, even if the proposed solutions would lack effectiveness.

    It would seem to me then, a priority for those who care about freedom of expression and who wish to see the internet remain an open medium for communication, would be to help educate those who currently lack an understanding of ways to monitor and control their private home computers.

    One of the quotes I used often to describe AntiOnline was that it was source of information for everyone from "sysadmins to soccer moms". The "fight-back" section, which now lingers on this site horribly out of date and neglected, was once the cornerstone of that ambition.

    However, it seems obvious that many of you, perhaps even most, feel that the exchange of ideas and the consideration of opinion should be reserved only for the most "advanced" of you. That indeed those that lack a mastery understanding of security architecture are "lesser" than you, and in fact, they don't even belong on here. Or perhaps on the internet period?

    An information security expert is an enabler. His or her job is to make sure that others can use data systems with confidence. Perhaps that confidence is that their work will remain "secret", or perhaps that confidence simply needs to be that their work won't "disappear". Whether we're talking about a mother trying to keep inappropriate material away from her child and her credit card numbers away from scammers, or a governmental agency trying to keep state secrets away from adversaries, at the end of the day, the information security expert's role is still the same.

    To be frank, the past several threads that I've read on here seem to demonstrate that many of you don't grasp that concept. While acting like an antisocial tough guy on AntiOnline might score you some of those AntiPoints that you seem to prize so much, that attitude won't serve you well when a client seeks to understand your recommendations, nor does it serve the greater goals of someone who supposedly seeks to protect information for a living.

    While I am certainly accustom to the insecure amongst the AntiOnline community using personal attacks against me as a way to validate themselves (Attacking people on the internet is after all, a great way to build self esteem after years of being beaten up on the playground), I was very upset to see attacks against some of the "soccer moms" that are here to gain an understanding of the systems that they use.

    Perhaps some of you should spend some time reflecting on what exactly it is you're hoping to accomplish as a "security professional".






    "Don't you see what JP is trying to do here?"
    -------------------------------------------------------
    You can now all go back to bitching about my gold dot, and the fact that I don't reply to the immature rantings that usually follow my first post in any given thread.

    I've also noticed the trend of giving negative AntiPoints to anyone that attests properly expressed opinions similar to my own in a thread, some to the point it's caused them to nearly get banned. Censorship of ideas, how ironic coming from this community of people?

    All perfect examples of what happens if you allow children to write on the walls with crayons, without receiving proper discipline for doing so.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Share on Google+

  2. #2
    AO Curmudgeon rcgreen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    2,716
    It's good to see this subject brought up. I tend to like discussion
    of how to reasonably secure and use the home computer. There are
    a lot of unsecured home computers out there, and they are probably
    more likely to be attacked, subverted and used for mischief than
    business computers, which usually sit behind firewalls and have
    full time network admins.

    Unfortunately, some professionals just don't want to discuss small
    time stuff, and get impatient with folks coming on wanting to know how
    to block content for their kids, or whatever. They should be reminded
    that security is a broad topic, and there are enough forums to cover
    everything.
    I came in to the world with nothing. I still have most of it.
    Share on Google+

  3. #3
    King Arana: Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    4,055
    This discussion is a very mature one, one that I'd love to discuss.. I thought the beginning of your post was very intelligent, thought out, and wanted to spark an intelligent discussion..

    Then I kept reading..

    JP, if you claim you are not here to start trouble, you "don't wanna reply to immature posts after your initial one" then why do you always make posts/threads like these? You were doing perfectly FINE with this one, until you tied it in with your mishaps here at AntiOnline. By doing so, it only further proved the point many here are trying to make in that you are a sad, depressed troublemaker who is obviously getting kicks from starting up a riot at a site he NO LONGER OWNS. I'd honestly LOVE to see you create a discussion that we KNOW you can create without the side-AO politics b/s.

    Oh, and we ALL know you're capable of starting intelligent discussions on information security. You just lately choose not to, and/or use it to tie into your problems here at AntiOnline/with AntiOnline.
    Space For Rent.. =]
    Share on Google+

  4. #4
    Super Moderator
    Know-it-All Master Beaver

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    3,914
    Hey Hey,

    It would seem to me then, a priority for those who care about freedom of expression and who wish to see the internet remain an open medium for communication, would be to help educate those who currently lack an understanding of ways to monitor and control their private home computers.
    There are two problems with this statement...

    A) That Freedom of Expression and the belief and support in the ideals behind it automatically translates into a desire to educate... This is not true and cannot be assumed... You also have to factor in that not everyone makes a good teacher... If you can't teach... you shouldn't... sometimes trying is worse than not acting at all..

    B) This spawns from your above statements... which demonstrates that the American government feels it can control a Global Medium... this is an even bigger problem than anything else... Until they realize they can't do this, everything else is a moot point... It's your government JP, why don't you lead the march to wake them up?

    However, it seems obvious that many of you, perhaps even most, feel that the exchange of ideas and the consideration of opinion should be reserved only for the most "advanced" of you. That indeed those that lack a mastery understanding of security architecture are "lesser" than you, and in fact, they don't even belong on here. Or perhaps on the internet period?
    Those are two things that should definately not be limited... however... You shouldn't speak on a subject if you have no idea what you're speaking on... which many people do here... However on the second point, that those who lack the mastery understanding of security architeture are "lesser" than others... there is truth to that... Similar to the way that an auto mechanic will look down their nose at someone coming to their garage and try to rip them off because they don't know what their doing, or the way a plumber will charge double if they think you're an imbecile. This is an ongoing action in society and common place, and IMHO there's nothing wrong with it.. why shouldn't I look down on someone who knows less than me? Just as I respect those who know more than I do... At the same time I respect those who know less than me if they're making an effort... Those that don't make an effort, don't belong here... and don't belong on the internet... Similar to your desire to have security professionals educate the inept... if we simply removed them from the equation... there'd be no problems...

    An information security expert is an enabler. His or her job is to make sure that others can use data systems with confidence. Perhaps that confidence is that their work will remain "secret", or perhaps that confidence simply needs to be that their work won't "disappear". Whether we're talking about a mother trying to keep inappropriate material away from her child and her credit card numbers away from scammers, or a governmental agency trying to keep state secrets away from adversaries, at the end of the day, the information security expert's role is still the same.
    This is, again, where you are mistaken... Why should I offer free assistance to that mother trying to keep her child away from inappropriate material (after all, wouldn't it be easier to keep that child safe if we didn't have people going around putting inapproriate material ont he net?)... Does a mechanic fix your car for free??? Does the HVAC Technician install your furnace for free??? So why should I waste my time walking you step by step through configuring net nanny when there are 100s of tutorials out ther that will already explain this to you... We live in a society where there's one valuable (regardless of what socialists, activists and everyone else will tell you) and it's money... Until we have true communism, our skill sets are valuable to us for a single reason.. to make us money... if we can't generate income, then we have no real use in this world... When it comes to providing for our families, without money we can't do that... I had to pay for my education, how I want that education to pay me back and to help pay my debts back... Helping people for free won't do that... In regards to this forum... I come here to exchange information and stay up to date... the keyword there is exchange... If I'm helping someone who can't help me in return there's no exchange going on there... so where's the benefit to me... Sure it's a nice thing to do... but the world doesn't run on nice things..

    To be frank, the past several threads that I've read on here seem to demonstrate that many of you don't grasp that concept. While acting like an antisocial tough guy on AntiOnline might score you some of those AntiPoints that you seem to prize so much, that attitude won't serve you well when a client seeks to understand your recommendations, nor does it serve the greater goals of someone who supposedly seeks to protect information for a living.

    While I am certainly accustom to the insecure amongst the AntiOnline community using personal attacks against me as a way to validate themselves (Attacking people on the internet is after all, a great way to build self esteem after years of being beaten up on the playground), I was very upset to see attacks against some of the "soccer moms" that are here to gain an understanding of the systems that they use.
    There's no concept to grasp.. that's your idea of how it works... not how everyone elses have to work... Hell I could say that the American Military doesn't grasp the concept of it's function... That America's government doesn't grasp the concept of pease... but that's just my opinion... I don't think that my opinion affects me as an information security professional... and I don't think if affects everyone else... Everything would be open source and shared freely if that was the belief and that's not how it works... It's easy for an admin to say hey, all software should be open source... but turn around and ask the people that work at the companies that develop the software... that's their livelyhood.. So it's a matter of to each their own.

    As for the "soccer moms" that's great... they want an understanding of how it works.. There are beginner forums out there... there's introductions to computers... Hell, I used to Admin a community access program... my task was to maintain a few PCs and provide classes to anyone that came in to use them free of charge... In that environment I was fulfilling a task to obtain money... so it was worth it... why don't these soccer mom's go there... to the places that are designed to accomodate them.

    rcgreen, you're next

    It's good to see this subject brought up. I tend to like discussion
    of how to reasonably secure and use the home computer. There are
    a lot of unsecured home computers out there, and they are probably
    more likely to be attacked, subverted and used for mischief than
    business computers, which usually sit behind firewalls and have
    full time network admins.
    This is all fine and dandy, but search the forums... you won't find a home user problem that hasn't been solved here... There's nothing new to learn by helping home users, which removes the benefit for someone here looking for new information to exchange... There's no benefit to me... All the person has done is shown they're to inept to even search properly and that presents a problem... at that point, they shouldn't have a computer..

    Unfortunately, some professionals just don't want to discuss small
    time stuff, and get impatient with folks coming on wanting to know how
    to block content for their kids, or whatever. They should be reminded
    that security is a broad topic, and there are enough forums to cover
    everything.
    Security is a HUGE topic... no doubt... but Security doesn't include tech support... those that want tech support should go elsewhere... as for the basics of security.. it's been answered (as I previously mentioned) why should I waste my time answering it again... There are basic tech support sites... send those people there and be done with them..

    Spyder32: Amen!

    Peace,
    HT
    IT Blog: .:Computer Defense:.
    PnCHd (Pronounced Pinched): Acronym - Point 'n Click Hacked. As in: "That website was pinched" or "The skiddie pinched my computer because I forgot to patch".
    Share on Google+

  5. #5
    Dissident 4dm1n brokencrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Shawnee country
    Posts
    1,242
    And what do you propose, JP?

    Unlike most posters here, I have little "enterprise" experience. My experience comes on SOHO's. Day in and day out I see the crap piped into folks' homes and offices. Every day I have to deal with folks who have nary a clue about how to secure their networks. Or better yet, they got some wacky idea that computer security is keeping MIB from reading the stuff on their CRT's some some white van out on the street. I even had one guy call the FBI on me when I told him the 3000 emails he was getting every 45 minutes wasn't from a virus, but that he was in fact, owned (or 0wn3d or however you kids put it).

    Most users will never "get it". They don't even know what 'bandwidth' is. I don't say that out of contempt, it just is what it is. The level of training necessary even to supervise the log files on your kid's computer is beyond most. Time, JP, time people don't have...

    Why not ISP-level content filtering?

    Why not even a nat'l firewall to block military hacking teams from foriegn countries?

    Is putting a lid on the cesspool of porn and gambling and violence on the web truly "a chilling effect on the free exchange of information and ideas"?

    I was teasing a prosecutor I know recently, inquiring if he could fix my parking tickets (one of my fav one-liners for authority types). His reply startled me a bit: he said no one fixes tickets anymore, not even for judges. He said he didn't quite understand why, but it dawned on me: databases. In the old days, if you threw tickets out, they were seldom found; too much work. And now, databases make audits so easy, no one fixes parking tickets anymore.

    As for information security, it's a bit of a misnomer. There is no information security. NONE. It's a joke. It's like trying to reign in a tidal wave. Isn't it funny how identity theft has become so prevalent with the internet age and the rise of a cashless society? 30, 40 years ago when I was growing up, we never heard of identity theft, though it surely occurred.

    Just as the wild West died out, so is the web as we know it.

    But just as Saudis and Chinese circumvent their web filters, so will Americans.

    I understand your sentiment. I thank God everyday for the internet. I'm not stuck reading the NY Times or the Nat'l Review anymore. I can read papers from Hong Kong and London instead. I can download programs I wouldn't otherwise see on American television.

    That's not going away.
    “Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.” — Will Rogers
    Share on Google+

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    1,100
    Originally posted here by brokencrow
    Is putting a lid on the cesspool of porn and gambling and violence on the web truly "a chilling effect on the free exchange of information and ideas"?
    Yes.
    Share on Google+

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    1,100
    Originally posted here by HTRegz
    after all, wouldn't it be easier to keep that child safe if we didn't have people going around putting inapproriate material ont he net?
    So the freedom of adults to express themselves should be limited to thoughts, ideas, and expressions that are appropriate for the least common denominator of our society, aka a 10 year old child?
    Share on Google+

  8. #8
    T̙͓̞̣̯ͦͭͅͅȂͧͭͧ̏̈͏̖̖Z̿ ͆̎̄
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    3,171
    JP...as utopian as that is...the fact remains there are irresponsible and un-responsible people out there. Irresponsible: Some parents don't care about the internet anymore than they care about wasting their check on booze or drugs while their children go hungry. Un-Responsible: in that they suffer some defect not of their own making...eg. down syndrome, etc...

    so...yes...it would be wonderful if there was no restrictions on expression...provided we were all responsible...but, as said, that is not the case.

    We are our brother's keeper...so where others fail to act responsible we have an obligation to be responsible for them.

    HT...to say you will only help those who can help you is a very sad reflection on community.

    JP...remind me to never entrust my daughters education to you...and HT, I'll only ask for your help if I can afford to pay you.

    Eg
    Share on Google+

  9. #9
    King Arana: Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    4,055
    Egaladeist: I think what HTRegz was primarily saying (correct me if wrong) was basically, that IS how a community is supposed to function: each person helping out each person. If someone isn't helping or doing their part, then that community has a falter in it. No longer is it a community (in regards to the two people involved) but moreso a charity provided by one person while the other does nothing. When they both contribute, that's an exchange..

    Just my interpretation of what was said..

    JP: While it might be "an effect" I don't think it's a "chilling effect". That's somewhat cold to say, actually.. very cold-hearted IMO. Then again, if you don't have children or whatever it might be easier to say. Regardless, putting a lid on violence and porn online so children aren't subjected to it should not be considered a chilling effect. Once again, I feel that's very heartless..
    Space For Rent.. =]
    Share on Google+

  10. #10
    ********** |ceWriterguy
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,608
    Eg, I'm forced to disagree with you in this. The world should not be required or compelled in any way to pad its corners for anyone, period. Irresponsible parents should be held criminally liable for their children being exposed to such materials as are being discussed. Frankly, I believe they should be shot.

    When any governmental entity begins creating laws because 'they're good for you' it's overstepping its bounds and infringing on the rights of the people. Amazingly enough, any committee comprised of more than 1 person is uncannily good at doing this. It's up to the rest of us to stop them.

    I concur with JP. That's why I pretty much quit posting altogether - I wasn't getting a bloody thing out of the site anymore. No big loss though, there's plenty more out there to keep me informed, and I'm quite sure there are those among you who're happy I'm not here unloading on them anyway.
    Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.

    Which coder said that nobody could outcode Microsoft in their own OS? Write a bit and make a fortune!
    Share on Google+

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •