Why is it so hard to get some prescription drugs in the needed quantities?

[Moira]

Good grief, this thread has grown since I last saw it

People can easily raise their tolerance to take LD50 doses and hardly feel them. The danger lies in coming off the stuff for a while, not realising your tolerance drops swiftly, and OD'ing on the same dose you'd hardly have felt a week ago.

True, 8mg of codeine phos is hardly (well not at all) felt. Dihydrocodeine isn't codeine phosphate, it's rather like the UK equivalent of vicodin, but there isn't the tylenol/paracetamol/acetamorphin (sp) content as a "filler". Dihydrocodeine is pure dihydrocodeine tartrate, ie hydrodocone to all intents and purposes. We can buy tablets that contain 8mg codeine phos or even 8mg dihydrocodeine OTC here, but they all contain substantial doses of paracetamol. The reason dihydrocodeine can become such a problem is that there is nothing to stop you taking large amounts - if it had some paracetamol (tylenol) in, then there'd be a natural barrier to overdoing it, ie you wouldn't want to risk an overdose. Yes, you can attempt to get rid of the tylenol content in tablets that contain both substances, but you're rather playing with fire - not something I'd try because I would never be certain it had worked. I don't have the equipment to do gas chromatography / mass spectrometry tests.

gore, tricyclic antidepressants have actually worked very well for me on the occasions I've needed them. And I've experienced those "two days of hell" believe me. I have to take painkillers for rheumatoid arthritis, and after a flare up subsides, I have on occasion just stopped dihydrocodeine more or less stone dead - and it's not funny.

LD50 for dihydrocodeine is 500 mg (the stuff is gauged in higher measurements than vidocin, ie one tablet contains 30mg), though some people would put that nearer 400 mg. Like I said though, tolerance can build to ridiculously high levels, as it can with benzos - which is why I try to take as little as possible, as it only wastes the precious stuff

As I said all along, the biggest problem with opiate use is wanting more. I find it incredibly addictive, whereas I don't think whatever circumstances I found myself in, I would ever become an alcoholic. I just don't like hangovers.

In the UK we used to be able to buy codeine cough linctus, and also Dr Collis Brown, but nowadays that's been stopped. The cough medicine you can get OTC contains pseudo codeine (ie stuff that isn't actually codeine at all, and is proportionately useless). Codeine linctus actually worked but you'd need a script for it now.

Yes, it's shocking how people in real need often find themselves almost criminalized for wanting dihydrocodeine or other strong pain medication. I don't think that addiction is the most important consideration in either termanilly ill patients or anyone in chronic/severe pain. Fortunately, I have a doctor who agrees with me. He's told me that he hates to hear his receptionists tell anyone ringing in for a repeat prescription, that their medication "isn't due". His view is, if they've rung up to request it, then they need it, and whether or not it's due doesn't come into it.

Interesting to see the mention of codeine to cure a headache. A frequent side effect of codeine in large doses is a "rebound headache" and I've experienced on quite a number of occasions a migraine as a result of taking dihydrocodeine for joint pain.

Edit I will upload an interesting video by Penn and Teller, called Bullshit - The War on Drugs. It does last 29 minutes but is well worth watching. I'll post the link when I have it, as it will take some time to upload.

[mohaughn]

No where in my post did I say anything about you having a high tolerance because of use, or did I call you an addict. Although I know what Freud would say about your comment back to me. The only thing I assumed is that if you can take 8 vicodins without any negative effects you have a high tolerance. Considerably higher than the vast majority of the population. You also have talked about taking a large variety of drugs

And again a great friend of mine lives with chronic migraines and manages them through visualization techniques. When he hit the point that he was taking 6 vicodins a day his headache specialist advised against continuing the use of vicodin because of the negative aspects of opium addiction. No doctor, pain specialist, or migraine specialist would ever suggest that a patient take 8 vicodins at once. It may be unfortunate that the current drugs available don't work for you, but just because of your drug tolerance does not mean that our medical system is fundamentally flawed. I would think better sense would prevail and say, "hey, these things aren't working for me" before anybody would take 8 vicodins. But that is just me.


As for other people assuming your have a drug problem. That may have a lot to do with your previous profile. As I'm fairly certain it said something about smoking weed. Or the pictures on your website of your holding up pills and smiling like a drugged fool, or maybe comments about taking several hits of acid and wanting a McDonalds pill burger.. Just a thought.

[brokencrow]

The pain med issue is not so simple.

I was a hospice volunteer for 10 years. Saw a lot of people die, week in and week out. Some people loved what we did, some considered us pill pushers. Frankly, there is a grain of truth to both. I remember when Jim And Dave brought Kim to the inpatient unit. She had ovarian cancer. The nurse and I went in to her room to administer some morph, she was squirming up and down in bed with pain. She kept saying, "no, don't do this, don't do this." I felt so bad, I knew what she wanted. She wanted to die with a clear mind. She was into the Bardo (see "The Tibetan Book of the Dead"). She didn't want the drugs. On the other hand, had a neighbor, and subsequent friend, Bill who died of the AIDS. He was on pain meds and got very tired of them. He didn't like the way they made him feel. But he needed them regularly, and he complained of being treated like a pariah at the doc's office for that. The sad fact is when we become sick in our society, our wishes are often dishonored and control of our lives are ceded to people who have no idea of what we go through. To me, it's an issue of care. I think one should have a right to control one's treatment.

One needs to look at the history of drugs, particularly in the United States, to get a feel for the issue of drug abuse. The golden age of drug abuse, contrary to popular belief, was NOT the 1960's and 1970's. It was the 1870's-1890's. Civil war doctors dispensed tens of millions of opium pills to wounded vets. By the 1870's, opium dens were popping up all over, even in small midwestern towns (I know, I grew up in one and learned its history). Opium and cocaine were widely available and used. Prominent citizens, like Thomas Alva Edison, used the stuff. All that changed in 1914 with the Harrison Act. Alcohol bounced back from Prohibition, drugs never did. An ethos came into being that folks didn't know what was best for them (often true!) and that anything in pill form needed regulating. Today, this is even being extended to vitamins (soon to be reg'd).

Having said all that, there's parts of the US where scripts for pain meds are freely dispensed (eastern Kentucky). The sad fact is, I can easily score pain meds with no script, but going to an MD for them would be a different story. I keep wondering how the drug companies & wholesalers reconcile their books with all the pills going to the street. Must be big money, because the Feds don't seem to look their way.

All the best to you, Gore. Frankly, I think you deserve medicinal relief from your pain.

[gore]

My last profile had a quote, but it wasn't about smoking pot. As for acid, I haven't ever done it. I won't touch that. The pill burger pic was something I thought was funny.

Current things do work fine for me, when they are actually available. Dilauded actually works wonders on a migraine, but getting it is another story. Out of all the Migraines I've ever had, I've gotten it twice. The rest I basically had to suffer. I've tried a lot of things for it from drinking a coke which I was told to try, to laying in a dark quiet room which may help with the light sensitivity, but it sure as hell does nothing for the pain or anythnig else.

As for Codeine giving head aches as Moira had talked about, I have heard of that happening, but personally haven't had it happen to me. The only side effects I've gotten from Opiates was alertness. Sort of like an intensified perception / concentration ability. That's about it.

[gore]

The pain med issue is not so simple.

I was a hospice volunteer for 10 years. Saw a lot of people die, week in and week out. Some people loved what we did, some considered us pill pushers. Frankly, there is a grain of truth to both. I remember when Jim And Dave brought Kim to the inpatient unit. She had ovarian cancer. The nurse and I went in to her room to administer some morph, she was squirming up and down in bed with pain. She kept saying, "no, don't do this, don't do this." I felt so bad, I knew what she wanted. She wanted to die with a clear mind. She was into the Bardo (see "The Tibetan Book of the Dead"). She didn't want the drugs. On the other hand, had a neighbor, and subsequent friend, Bill who died of the AIDS. He was on pain meds and got very tired of them. He didn't like the way they made him feel. But he needed them regularly, and he complained of being treated like a pariah at the doc's office for that. The sad fact is when we become sick in our society, our wishes are often dishonored and control of our lives are ceded to people who have no idea of what we go through. To me, it's an issue of care. I think one should have a right to control one's treatment.

One needs to look at the history of drugs, particularly in the United States, to get a feel for the issue of drug abuse. The golden age of drug abuse, contrary to popular belief, was NOT the 1960's and 1970's. It was the 1870's-1890's. Civil war doctors dispensed tens of millions of opium pills to wounded vets. By the 1870's, opium dens were popping up all over, even in small midwestern towns (I know, I grew up in one and learned its history). Opium and cocaine were widely available and used. Prominent citizens, like Thomas Alva Edison, used the stuff. All that changed in 1914 with the Harrison Act. Alcohol bounced back from Prohibition, drugs never did. An ethos came into being that folks didn't know what was best for them (often true!) and that anything in pill form needed regulating. Today, this is even being extended to vitamins (soon to be reg'd).

Having said all that, there's parts of the US where scripts for pain meds are freely dispensed (eastern Kentucky). The sad fact is, I can easily score pain meds with no script, but going to an MD for them would be a different story. I keep wondering how the drug companies & wholesalers reconcile their books with all the pills going to the street. Must be big money, because the Feds don't seem to look their way.

All the best to you, Gore. Frankly, I think you deserve medicinal relief from your pain.

Not going to make another huge post because I have some things to do here I need to get done, but yes, you hit it right on the head. The 60s and 70s had nothing on the 1890s where half of congress were Morphine addicts.

Hell, even the pot back then was stronger. People say pot today isn't the same as it was in the 60s and 70s so that Parents can be hipocrits and tell their kids not to do it, which is also half assed truth.

The strongest pot the US had ever seen was in the 1930s. Also, the stronger the pot, the safer for your body it is. If smoking it is a health risk, then stronegr stuff wouldn't need to be smoked for the desired effect.

Also, smoking Opium won't ever cause cancer. I bet someone is going to love that comment, but it's true. Opium isn't burned, it's heated, therefore, there isn't any smoke, and therefore, no risk for cancer.

Anyway, I'll check back in a while. And thanks.

[brokencrow]

...yow, I don't know how weed can get much stronger than some good 'dro.

[Moira]

OK, this video uploaded. It gets across a good message, well worth watching IMO, even if it is a tad americanised.

It lasts 29 minutes but don't let that put you off.

http://tinyurl.com/ybweth

And here's a more light hearted short video, which was commissioned to get home the point about the way giant drug companies are ruthlessly exploiting us with their marketing message:

http://tinyurl.com/yawklk

[nihil]

Hi gore

AFAIK you can still get OTC products in the UK that contain morphine and codeine. You would have to get them from a registered pharmacist though, so they are sort of "controlled" as in "adults only"...............a bit like alcohol, solvents and the like.

You actually may have inherited this tolerance from your mother. My best friend's father was nearly killed by a small dose of penicillin, yet it is absolutely useless to my friend........he may as well eat candy.

Pot (cannabis) is an interesting one. It used to be sold as a medication and is actually being grown under licence over here for pharmaceutical research purposes at the moment. It basically got banned as a knee jerk political reaction to "recreational drugs" but it looks as if it could be back on the shelves fairly shortly.

I am sure that we will use the traditional British compromise of renaming it to allow legislative duality.............like we call legal heroin "diamorphine"

[gore]

Hi gore

AFAIK you can still get OTC products in the UK that contain morphine and codeine. You would have to get them from a registered pharmacist though, so they are sort of "controlled" as in "adults only"...............a bit like alcohol, solvents and the like.

You actually may have inherited this tolerance from your mother. My best friend's father was nearly killed by a small dose of penicillin, yet it is absolutely useless to my friend........he may as well eat candy.

Pot (cannabis) is an interesting one. It used to be sold as a medication and is actually being grown under licence over here for pharmaceutical research purposes at the moment. It basically got banned as a knee jerk political reaction to "recreational drugs" but it looks as if it could be back on the shelves fairly shortly.

I am sure that we will use the traditional British compromise of renaming it to allow legislative duality.............like we call legal heroin "diamorphine"

I applaud the UK for that. Well them and any other country where they actually allow people to test things for facts and not something a D.A.R.E. cop force fed them in school.

New research into pot seems to show it does have more than just a few uses:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4286435.stm

Hmm, is it REALLY that shocking? What does pot do to a lot of people? Mess with memory... What does that disease destroy?.... Get the drift?

I know everyone here doesn't believe in the same things I do, however, I believe in God, and believe God has given humanity plants to use for things that would happen.

The Papaver Somniferum plant was made for joy and killing of pain and sad days, and it seems the Cannibinoids were mad for what most people use them for anyway:

Expanding your mind.

I probably wouldn't be so... Well whatever someone would call the way I am about drugs... But I have to be, anyone here from America sees probably 50 anti-drug commercials a day and all of them are the same, "drugs are bad you'll die and have no friends and getting stoned is going to turn you into a baby killer"....

What kind of human being would I be if I knew otherwise and didn't say a word about it? Complacency is the enemy. Just like that KMFDM song WW3 "I declare war on the war against drugs, ... war on Complacent Consent...Organised dis-information".

I get called a lot of things in my area. I don't just act like this online, I stand up for what I believe in here in Michigan too. I've been called un-American for what I'm willing to say..

I'm not sure if I should take that as a compliment or not though considering every other country hates the US anyway.

It's the land of the free yet people here are more strict than most other places and our kids are STILL little bastards with no manners.

I think I'll put that on a tee shirt. heh.

And also, me ebing called an "anarchist" which is bullshit too, because I had an upside down flag hanging on my wall. There was not only a reason it was there, it was a good reason.

As a citizen of the US you are SUPPOSED to hang it upside down in time of emergency. What is more patriotic considering how America was founded, than hating the govt and control ?

[brokencrow]

Interestingly, one of the primary reasons pot doesn't get legalized is that the police have no way of checking if users are under the influence. I've had several policeman tell me as much. I even had a state trooper tell me on I-75 they didn't even care about pot anymore.

Some pot today is much stronger than what was around in the 60's and 70's. In high school in the early 70's, weed went for $10-15 a lid (an ounce). It was Mexican, all leaf, no buds. Every once in a while, some "black Michoacan" would come through. That stuff was good, light fluffy bud mixed with leaf.

The mid-70's saw the importation of Colombian weed and prices jumped to $35 an o-z. The Mexican stuff also jumped in price. I can remember a flood of Acapulco Gold in spring of '75. The stuff was excellent, but shot through with seeds (almost 1/2 the weight). Pot took on a different look too. It was being compressed in trash compactors before being exported.

Then the sinsemilla craze hit about 1980 or so. Wow, the stuff was all bud and strong. A far cry from the Colombian and Mexican we were used to. And it was being grown locally, in the hills of eastern Ohio. Sinsemilla became quite the cottage industry, from California to Kentucky. And prices went crazy. $200 and up was nothing.

I'm pretty much out of the loop these days, but what I see now is "chronic", what we used to call commercial-grade Colombian/Mexican stuff. It's average from what I can tell. And then there's 'dro. That's as good a weed as there ever was. E-v-e-r.

I was having coffee with a friend the other day who's the head librarian at a local university. We were trading war stories, and he mentioned coming across Nepalese temple balls, which was a high-grade hashish, on a trip to Asia in the 60's. Hash used to make the rounds in the 60's & 70's, and I asked my friend what ever happened to it. He emphatically (!) stated no one needs it anymore as pot is so much better. There's a lot of truth to that.

What I find most distinctive between "now" and "then" is the violence of the drug culture. I knew a couple of heavy-duty dealers in the 70's, and for the most part, they didn't own guns. It was B.C. (before crack). The influx of cocaine in the 80's gave rise to the "scarface" mentality. Gangs moved into the drug market, particularly bikers from what I saw. Dealing with them, you put your life in their hands. Even pot growers suffered. In recent years, I've come to know some folks who moved back into eastern Ky to grow weed 20-25 years ago. Elsie's husband got killed back in the woods years ago by some good ol' boys. Of course, the kids of those good ol' boys who hated dope and made moonshine are growing it themselves these days. Those hills are riddled with well-armed dopers now.

To me, it's all gotten so convoluted. Everyone's raised the stakes: the druggies, the mfg'ers (legal or not), and the law. Drugs, both legal and illegal, are BIG money. And I still wonder, coming back to pain meds, how mfg'ers and wholesalers reconcile their books to cover all the pills hitting the street. The UN even puts illegal drugs as the largest article of world trade in dollar terms. Estimates vary though. But it's big, real big. How's all this stuff get across borders without some form of gov't collusion?

Follow the money? Control drugs and you're going to make a lot of moolah. A far cry indeed from the 60's and 70's.