Ya Gotta Wonder...
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Thread: Ya Gotta Wonder...

  1. #1
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    Ya Gotta Wonder...

    Hey Hey,

    So I still haven't seen a straight answer... the Israeli soldiers were on Lebanese soil.. now they were on Israeli soil... no one seems to really know...

    So what do we know... the Israeli's started killing innocent people by bombing the **** out of their cities... over what... a couple of PoWs?? That seems excessive... but that's life... so what are you going to do about it.... so then I'm reading the paper today (Toronto Star... seems a lot of Torontonians don't like it... but it's a decent read)...

    So first thing I read... it's about the FBI Directors visit to Canada.... apparently we have 10 FBI agents working in Canada... two of them here in Toronto (prolly just to watch me )... Anyways... he said our terrorism laws were too lax... that we should be more like the American terror laws which "require a lower threshold of proof"... Maybe it's just me but my law classes and times spent in front of the Ontario Supreme Court lead me to believe in a couple of terms like "burden of proof" and "beyond a reasonable doubt". The biggest being... innocent until proven guilty... So now I've gotta wonder... what does proven guilty mean... Well here it means beyond a reasonable doubt... but apparently our threadhold of proof is a little too high... So what exactly does "innocent until proven guilty" mean to the America... I'm guessing it's beyond an unreasonable doubt... or perhaps.. "you were arrested, you must be guilty"... perhaps Canada has it wrong and it's "guilty until proven innocent"... Any Americans want to speak up on this? I promise not to turn it into a war of insults... I'm really curious... I always considered proof to be a fairly concrete, static, constant of sorts... apparently I've been wrong...

    The next thing I read is about the UN security counsil and their debates on what to do in the middle east... It amazed me that while "numerous" countries are calling for a ceasefire... the United States is against that... saying these attacks should continue until the two soldiers are released.... So let me get this straight? The US cares more about two Israeli shoulders that were captured (it's called capture during War, not kidnapping) when they may or may not have been on enemy soil... than they do about 25000 of their own?? Again... I'd love to have an American (or many Americans) speak up on this..

    Lastly... I decide to find more information on just whose soil these soldiers were on and I come across some interesting things on the US Embassy website... It seems that initially the Embassy had informed their citizens that they would have to pay the government back for their evacuation (this was on the 15th) on the 19th they proclaimed that citizens would no longer have to reimburse them... however it took a public outcry for this to happen... I have to wonder about this... does the US Government really have that little respect for its own citizens that it would force them to pay to be evacuated from war-torn nations... I haven't heard of a single other country even considering this... I find it really funny that the US Government was so concerned about money considering that they give $3 Billion annually to Isreal... www.adc.org/IB85066.pdf%2BCRS%2BIssue%2BBrief%2BIB85066,%2BIsrael;%2BU.%2BS.%2BForeign%2BAssistance.&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1]notes here[/url]

    Anyways yeah.... it's late... I have lots of work to do.. but those things really blew my mind and I had to comment and get some feedback.

    Peace,
    HT
    IT Blog: .:Computer Defense:.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member nihil's Avatar
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    Hmmmm,

    that we should be more like the American terror laws which "require a lower threshold of proof"
    I didn't think that they required any threshold of proof, given that people are being incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay and various banana republic prisons without charge or trial?

    Hell, they are not going to gather any more "evidence" at this stage so either charge them and lose or just shoot the buggers as I am sure they are regretting not having done in the first instance?

  3. #3
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    HT:

    Want some cheese with that whine?

    Stick to computers... At least you have some modicum of credibility left on that subject.
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
    \"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools.\" - Thucydides

  4. #4
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    5 opinions that nobody cares about anymore (and that are, to be honest, pretty petty) and something you proclaim to be fact ("it's called capture during War, not kidnapping"), but isn't... it's going downhill fast, HT, from "arrogant with a valid argument here and there" to "extremely arrogant and full of bragging without merit".

    We should all ignore it... they say it goes away that way.

  5. #5
    AO Curmudgeon rcgreen's Avatar
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    Here's the way I see it. There is no credible Lebanese government.
    The southern half of the country is controlled by these Hezbolah guys,
    and they nabbed the Israeli soldiers. The government in Beirut shrugs
    and says "we can't control what they do".

    Either you are the government or you aren't. If you are,
    you police the border and prevent incidents like this. If you aren't,
    then this is a lawless territory with a people incapable of self rule,
    and some foreign power will come in and establish law and order.
    What better candidate for that job than the offended neighbor,
    who is unable to live in peace because Lebanon is a launch pad for
    repeated attacks (and this isn't the first time this chit has happened)

    China would not permit their neighbors to behave this way. Neither
    would Canada.
    I came in to the world with nothing. I still have most of it.

  6. #6
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    I think the US gov. should take notes on israels response. At the time the soilders were "captured" war had not been openly declared. Lebanons gov. was infiltrated by a known terrorist org.

    Personally any "innocent" killed in either Lebanon or Beirut deserves an automatic Darwin award since that particular part of the world has spent more time at war than they have not since recorded history.

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    My goal here was to have a discussion without bringing my opinions on America into it and rather to garner others opinions... I thought I'd done that fairly well..


    Kudos to nihil (whom I'd say was the one to attack the US this time ), rcgreen and spamdies for actually attempting a conversation..

    Tiger and Neg: What do you have against discussing this??

    Tiger: Where was I whining? I'm questioning things and what those that believe/support these issues to discuss them with me... Where's the harm in that? That's what Cosmos is for..

    Neg: The majority of what I wrote is fact... There's plenty of merit and validity in what I posted... so I really don't see where you're coming from...

    nihil: While I agree with you... to come out and say that would only make me more Anti-American and cause more people to attack me for attempting to start up a discussion... I'm actually surprised no one else wants to discuss this..

    rcgreen: Fair enough... but do you really condone your government saying that Israel should not agree to a ceasefire??

    spamdies: The US should take notes??? you're saying the US Should be more agressive than it already is?? or ...

    Peace,
    HT
    IT Blog: .:Computer Defense:.
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  8. #8
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    HT:

    Your "whining" was yet to come... When _you_ start any conversation where you question anything America says or does, (and in this case America's friend, ally and also most hated country in the world), it becomes a simple knee jerk reaction for some of us to interpolate where the conversation is intended to go... and we will be right the majority of the time.

    Tyler... Ask yourself this question and, if you wish, answer it here... Why is this happening now?

    When you get the right answer you will understand why almost every question you asked in your original post is irrelevant.
    Don\'t SYN us.... We\'ll SYN you.....
    \"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools.\" - Thucydides

  9. #9
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    Originally posted here by rcgreen
    Here's the way I see it. There is no credible Lebanese government.
    The southern half of the country is controlled by these Hezbolah guys,
    and they nabbed the Israeli soldiers. The government in Beirut shrugs
    and says "we can't control what they do".

    Either you are the government or you aren't. If you are,
    you police the border and prevent incidents like this. If you aren't,
    then this is a lawless territory with a people incapable of self rule,
    and some foreign power will come in and establish law and order.
    What better candidate for that job than the offended neighbor,
    who is unable to live in peace because Lebanon is a launch pad for
    repeated attacks (and this isn't the first time this chit has happened)

    China would not permit their neighbors to behave this way. Neither
    would Canada.
    1) Agreed.


    2) About Guantanamo Bay, they were enemy combatants--"red-handed". They don't wear uniforms that belong to a soverign power, so you can't slap them on the wirst and say, "go home". They're terrorists with a gun, not a bomb; thus making it very difficult to pin-point an exact moment for a precise charge--even though guilt is in extreme. In a criminal trial--difficult to gather evidence on a concrete charge, even if they were SHOOTING all manners of weapons with lethal intent, and consipiring to do harm to eveyone in proximity (be it US soldier or innocent bystander).

    They are not US citizens and weren't on US soil, so arn't applicable to US law--nor are the subject to Geneva (imo) beause they don't belong to a nation. If you ask me, they should be extradited to Iraq for trial there, or proper Iraqi officials sent to Cuba to charge them there.


    3) I garuntee that anyone over there working for the US government or aid workers did not pay a dime getting out. Those US civillians there were so on their own terms, money, and most importantly risk. They chose to be there, not the US government. The responsibility falls on them to plan their vacations and residencies more intelligently. I don't see why I or the minimum wage family with 2 kids should pay money for their ignorance.

    Also, notice how brutally the media attacked the evacuation process? Then, notice how quickly their tune changed once they started polling. Oops! The large majority of US citizens polled believed that attempts were good, or at worst--sufficient. Thanks for being always fair and always impartial Media. At least they stopped attacks, even if the Media is too infaliable and pompous to ever apologize.

    It's SO easy to talk. Those critics don't have a damn clue what it takes to move 25,000 scattered, untrained, uncoordinated, panicked people out of a warzone with only a few days warning and no resources anywhere within thousands of miles.


    4) I laugh every time people look yet again to the US for answers. People once more look to, ask for, demand that the US do "something" while idly twiddling their thumbs. Wait a second, I thought nobody wanted the "Great Satan" to interlope yet again. I thought the US wasn't supposed to police the world? I have not heard a single "talking head", news program, or ANY media outlet demand UN action, or why the UN isn't doing enough.

    I think Isreal is doing a fine job cleaning up that mess all by themselves. Yes, they used "kidnapped" soldiers as an excuse to retaliate in this conflict. However:
    a) refer to RCGreen's post
    b) Israel has decades of "excuses" to do such enforcement
    c If the UN (as always) will not inforce its own edicts without the USA doing 90% of the work, it's only right that Israel should.
    d To clean up any mess, you need to get your hands dirty.

    I tried my best not to rant, but I think it was in vain. Apologies.
    \"Greatness only comes at great risk.\" ~ Personal/Generic

  10. #10
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    Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
    HT:

    Your "whining" was yet to come... When _you_ start any conversation where you question anything America says or does, (and in this case America's friend, ally and also most hated country in the world), it becomes a simple knee jerk reaction for some of us to interpolate where the conversation is intended to go... and we will be right the majority of the time.

    Tyler... Ask yourself this question and, if you wish, answer it here... Why is this happening now?

    When you get the right answer you will understand why almost every question you asked in your original post is irrelevant.
    I still say I don't whine.. I may insult but I don't whine... I actually want legit answers to these questions... I want to know if the Citizens of the US actually stand behind their president when he says, "Even though there are over 100,000 foreign nationals there and even though 25,000 of them are our citizens... don't stop firing missiles and rockets"... I also want to know if Americans really think that proof should have "thresholds" or if that's the government.

    As for the why is this happening now... these posts... or what's happening in the middle east... If it's the middle east, I think it's because the Israeli's are upset that two of their soldiers were caught on the wrong side of the border (regardless of what the majority of news sources say... that's my belief)... If it's these posts.. I think it's because I've finally made valid statements about inhumane actions coming from Bush and you guys don't like it so instead of discussing it you insult..


    Evil Moo:

    2 -- That's your opinion of that... Some of us still believe in evidence and proof in order to hold someone

    3 -- The attempts NOW being made are good, sending over boats to gather the people is the right move... However both US and Canada acted behind every other nation... As for the "why should we help them" statement... We just had that discussion here today... Image you're a few years older and your child is over there... backpacking through the middle east or something... You'd want the government to leave them??? Neg, you always attack me for some of my past comments regarding "a dead American for every dead Iraqi"... well how would you feel if you had children over there.. or other family members over there... Would you want the country to sit idly by? EvilMoo: You don't want to pay the small sum of money to rescue these people but you're ok with your country giving 3 Billion in Aid to Israel every year?

    4 -- I don't think it's a matter of people wanting the US to act (based on what I've read and seen and my opinions)... I want the US to stop pushing this war on... I'm reminded of seeing a guy being jumped... Most nations are like that guys girlfriend, begging the attackers to stop... while the US is standing there cheering the fight on and occasionally throwing their own punches.

    Peace,
    HT
    IT Blog: .:Computer Defense:.
    PnCHd (Pronounced Pinched): Acronym - Point 'n Click Hacked. As in: "That website was pinched" or "The skiddie pinched my computer because I forgot to patch".

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