7 potential problems with the new AP system

Before any of you all start reading this, agree to read the whole thing so as to not pass mis-guided judgement.



Ok, with the new AP feature that you all are aware of , there is one small long term problem the way i see it. The ability for competition amongst other users arose constantly whenever we had the old feature, which is good except for whenever you encounter abuse.

Now, i feel that other users are a bit afraid (and im using this term lightly) to assign negative points to people so that they don't get any enemies. This is good for the fact that the abuse has been taken out of it in this respect, however it is bad in the long run.

People with less power (and this is the part you need to think about, and dont be self-prejudiced) wont neg more powerful users because they will believe that the more powerful user will take back revenge on them without fear of their name being slotted amongst their anti-point center. i know some of you powerful members dont revenge upon negs, but lets face it, most of you do. I have myself countless times because i knew that my name didnt have to go next to the assignment. And dont act like you *always* sign your name without never not signing it. please.

The other problem we will have is that the threads that become "extremely positive" will lose their meaning. I look on the main page and notice that nearly everyone of them is extremely positive, regardless of the fact that the thread was even good or not. Back in the old days with the old system, you wouldnt see nearly this many. This problem will:

1. lead to bad members becoming powerful (think about it)

2. powerful members not being slapped on the wrist

3. users that really deserve to have the highest amount of antipoints, not having them. As of now, that is still in place. (them being where they should be, although there has been exceptions)

4. Less quality posts because of the lack of fear from the "negative antipoint"

5. Lead to just a bad all-around antionline, although it was already spiraling to that before the new feature. Bad as in, not how it used to be, how most people used to love it.

6. Indirect positive assignments only to make other users like you (this already happened with signing your name, but not so much for the more lazy members. face that as well.

7. less OR more bad posters being banned when they do or do not deserve it. meaning, occasionally these bad posts DO get positives, so other users follow suit for fear of not jumping on the bandwagon. Face it.

welp thats about it, overtime i can almost guarentee that 1 of those 7 if not all of them will occur. New admin, intmon etc, just think about it, dont act on it if you dont put deep thought into it, i mean afterall it is your website. but you still have a site suggestions forum, so that means that i can give my opinion on what should be done.

/me steps off of soapbox.

these are 7 excellent points ... but we ( the AO community ) didnt get any better ideas how to stop the abuse and this is only a try-out of the new AP feature ...we'll see how it turns out .... if anybody got suggestions ...please we're waiting :)

my suggestion is ...not a very good one ...that a member can choose how many APs he want to assign to a post ...like if a member with a gigantic number with positive antipoints wants to neg a newbie ( now it will put the newbies in the red ) so i thought the user can decide if he wants to assign like 30 negative points of a total of 100 negative antipoint possible,he can do that, that way the user can decide was the thread real bad ...or just little bad ...:) .... and when your number of positive antipoints grows then also your number of possible antipoints to give out grows .... tell me what you think about this .... negative and positive replies very welcome ...

Hey er0k :)

Indeed you speak out strong points in your post here. I just want to add my opinion to it, not judge it in any ways.

First off, i joined AO in Nov 2002. At that time, there was not half as much threads on APs, or problems as there have been lately. The information that flowed had much higher quality, and more interest. I too have cut down a massive deal on posting security issues, which i still hope will change.

You are right about fear when it comes to negging, and you are also right about too many posts being positive which dont deserve it.

Now to your points in details.

Points 1 & 2 - I agree with these. There is a potential chance of that happening the way you have put it.

Point 3 - I will ignore this one, because i see that all good and helpful posts do get the postivie APs they deserve.

Point 4 - Thats a tricky one. Basicly, asking questions is not bad quality (except the classic "how do i hack" questions"). I remember when some posts replied a wrong answer or stupid answers. These posts still will be negged. I think that most of us will still assign the appropriate APs for bad quality posts. Even the "bad guys" as you call them will neg poor posts.

Point 5 - I have no idea what you mean with that, and i will make no assumptions incase i misunderstand it.

Point 6 - I dont think this is much of an issue or problem. I would say that the people who have the power will not fall for that "licking". If some newbie gives me a greenie for something i dont really deserve or the comment shows any kind of "licking", i sure as hell will not put them on some "friends for APs" list. The true power lies in people who have earned their points by sharing excellent security knowledge. These people will not be bribed that simple. I too have gotten some weird greenies for posts which really dont deserve em. I do not give em a greenie back just because they sent me a greenie with a nice comment. I tend to judge by post, not by name. A nice example are the last 2 BOFS from Gore, i thought they were great, but compared to the older ones, i didnt feel like assigning a positive point for them. (No offense Gore, i really liked them, but you cant expect me to give you a greenie for every bofh you write)
I know that Gore will assign me a postivie point if i make a post which is worth it, not matter if i greened him the last time or not, and the same applies vise versa. Ofcourse there are black sheep in every herd, as this new AP system has proven and shown us. But in general, the higher members are not that revenge happy or trigger happy for negs. Alone them being so long at AO proves that they remain here for the true purpose of AO. SECURITY.

Point 7 - I think that this is the excuse to equal out their APs. I think that the only way to solve this problem is to remove the part where you have to equal out APs.



Point is, while the less powerfull people hear fear to neg others, i want to make the newbies understand that WE are not animals or bastards. Most of us are not revenge addticted. We want security and computer issues, not power abuse. If anyone thinks that a higher member's post is poor or really deserves a neg, then go ahead and neg them. Thats what the APs are for. Dont be scared. Everyone gets negged at some point. Its always been that way, and it always will. An excellet example is DoodzAttackin. Some time ago he posted alot of poor stuff, and he almost got banned. I am happy to see that he has changed attitude and in the mean time he has become a resptected member here. His posts have increased in quality and in interest. I hope he keeps up this good posting. If anyone feels that he is being negged unfairly, then they can always pm a moderator and talk about it. Dont start a thread whining about it. Talk to the proper people, and dont make any revenge negs or anything like that. Yes, there has been some unfair negging in the past, but dont let that stop you from anything. Also, dont make the AP system your main goal on AO. Your here to learn, not to make an AP collection of different green colors. Your best bet is to ignore the APs and stick to the original reason why you have joined this community.

Er0k, like i said, you have some very valid points, that have to be watched over in the near future. But, also lets give this a try the way it is for a little more time. All changes need time and patience to prove their results.

Ofcourse all points were made from my point of view, so dont take anything i say for granted or true, its just the way i saw or see them. If anyone disagrees with mine or er0k's words here, then correct us and discuss it. I know that the true respected members will not post alot of poor quality, and if they get negged at some point, then im sure that they will not go after you. DONT BE SCARED.

Sorry for this long and confusing post. Im still in the process of having my morning coffee.

Cheers.



//addon

oops, before i forget, i just though about this one :rolleyes:

Some time ago people who would post in the wrong forums used to be negged. Now most of us dont want to neg them for that anymore (or they want but they dont) since they done want to fall into the category of AP abusing. If its the first one or two posts that are in the wrong category, place, subject, whatever, this can be excused. But if some people continusly disregard the comments and the site's rules, then a neg is justified. Point is, dont let a neg affect personal feelings, or personal relations within the people of this community. A neg is not the end of the world. Dont hate someone who gives you a neg (unless they are a victim of abuse like deb and a few others were.) Just make sure that the negs are topic based, and not based on personal feelings. Anyone with half a brain will understand this and will not go into a revenge mode or anything like that.

Cheers.

Why thanks instronics you brought a smile to my face.

I think that those are great suggestions, you all bring great points.

But if I can, am going to add something

That now this new feature is in affect, as what you said that people are a little scared to give neg. to high AP members, this is going to bring there "user tends to assign" to full green making the massage popup on the welcoming screen (saying you have gave out to many positive AP you have to even your bar out). That is not saying going around neg. people (just like what instronics said only give neg if in wrong forum or there thread is crap). In the future this can make a problem.

Just wanted to bring that to you. :)

Cya

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excellet example is DoodzAttackin. Some time ago he posted alot of poor stuff, and he almost got banned. I am happy to see that he has changed attitude and in the mean time he has become a resptected member here.

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heh instronics remember when i had 3 red dots at one point :)

At the risk of being negged or flamed, I honestly don't understand why so many AO members are having a problem with the fact that their AP assignment is no longer anonymous. IMHO this is a step in the right direction towards a better policing of the system and should help in keeping it more honest. If an AO member is petty enough to consider someone their enemy or friend because of an AP assignment - maybe they need to grow up. What I find intriguing about this whole thing is that the individuals who dislike it the most, have the least to lose. How many members, Newbie or otherwise, with only a few greenies to their name, have voiced such strong objections to this addition?

er0k -
1. Who exactly IS a bad member? What qualifies someone as a bad member? Someone who doesn't agree with anothers views, anyone who negs you, individuals with only a few greenies, Newbies . . . What?
2. I don't see where this new feature makes any difference in whether or not a power member is slapped on their wrist. Why or how will it make a difference one way or the other?
3. I agree there are AO members that have not received points they deserved for quality posts made, others have been negged for no good reason, while still other members received positive points for threads that should have committed suicide. So, who deserves to have the highest antipoint count?
4. If a thread is of poor quality, it deserves to be negged, no matter who started it. The only individuals who might have a 'lack of fear of negative points' are already power members. So does this mean the only threads which will be negged will be from the green deprived class or will power members begin originating threads or tutorials of poor quality?
5. How will the new AP feature make AO worse? Members who have 'green power' still contribute the majority of posts, thread originations and tutorials. They are also the individuals who supposedly have the most knowledge regarding security issues. What has changed to put AO on a downward spiral?
6. Assigning greenies to another member, because you think they will like you is a bit juvenile. Sooner rather than later, it will catch up to them because of their "Tends to Assign" meter and they will have to start doling out negs to balance themselves out or be sanctioned.
7. As stated in #5, those with the power have the control, so unless they are the ones who get lazy about assigning points, I can't see where there will be much of a change in who is or isn't banned.

instronics - I agree that an AO members goal should not be his/her collection of AP points but rather expanding and sharing their knowledge regarding security. Convincing Newbies that power members are not animals or revenge addicted will take some doing, especially when Senior Members admit openly to doing just that. How many members actually put comments with their AP assignments? I also agree that AP points should be topic based, both negative and positive. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism or praise but it should be given for the right reason.

From where I'm sitting, there's been too much whining about this new feature without even giving it a chance. The way I see it, if you're not willing to stand behind your AP assignments, you should quit assigning points and leave it to those who are. These are my opinions and while they may be unfavorable to some - they are mine. Thank you.
V.

LOTS of good points in this thread. I have to admit, the handling of AP' was a surprise to me, even though I'm happy that SOMETHING has been done to curb the abuse.

All the same, I still gotta open my big mouth...
[rant] I want CONTROL of how I dish out my AP's.....I want to be able to limit the "power" I supposedly wield. I don't care if it's a percentage based system, a "low to high" slider bar or a roulette wheel. I DON'T want to drop the atomic piledriver everytime I decide to give out points....red or green. [/rant]

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[rant] I want CONTROL of how I dish out my AP's.....I want to be able to limit the "power" I supposedly wield. I don't care if it's a percentage based system, a "low to high" slider bar or a roulette wheel. I DON'T want to drop the atomic piledriver everytime I decide to give out points....red or green. [/rant]

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This should be the first edit of the antipoint system IMO. Or a counter on how much people rated the post, to at least let people know, from how many perspectives the post was rated. These 2 things could improve the AP system VERY much.

[edit]
Even better would be, to provide 2 figures of how many posted negative, and positive AP's. That way, for instance, people can still see that an extremely negative post, was only rated once negative by a powerfull member.
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[rant] I want CONTROL of how I dish out my AP's.....I want to be able to limit the "power" I supposedly wield. I don't care if it's a percentage based system, a "low to high" slider bar or a roulette wheel. I DON'T want to drop the atomic piledriver everytime I decide to give out points....red or green. [/rant]

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Couldn't agree more...

/nebulus