Hell- we didn't need any rights anyway, right?

We originally discussed this a few months back in this thread: Bill of Rights

It has reared its ugly head again. The government strips away our rights in the name of fighting "terrorism" and the next thing you know the FBI is using provisions of the Patriot Act to subpoena journalists for information on Adrian Lamo.

I don't support Mr. Lamo's actions- hacking is hacking and breaking into a network you know you aren't authorized to be in is illegal plain and simple- no matter how "altruistic" your motives are or how benign your actions after the fact.

BUT, Adrian Lamo is hardly a terrorist or a threat to national security. Violating the 1st amendment rights of the journalists involved in order to throw the book at him seems a tad over the top.

I question the ability of the United States government to have the restraint to use the provisions of the Patriot Act "appropriately" or for their allegedly intended purpose. I see it as more "give them an inch and they'll take a mile". It is hard to have degrees of rights- you have them or you don't and it seems that in the name of "national security" the current regime has chosen to revoke ours.

Most of the provisions of the Patriot Act have deadlines after which our rights are supposed to be returned to us. I recommend that you keep an eye on that situation and make sure your elected officials understand that you would like your rights back if its all the same to them.

Here is the SecurityFocus article by Mark Rasch: The Subpoenas Are Coming!

Our local daily had a front page story about the use of the Patriot Act in "non-terrorist" investigations.

My only question is: Who, in their right mind, believed that the government would restrict itself to terrorism-related investigations with regard to the Patriot Act?

Sometimes I think that the government knew about 9-11 prior to the event (there is evidence to support my paranoia), and let it happen (yes, I believe that the government can be that callous) so they could pass this act as a first step in the removal of the Bill of Rights and all other natural rights of citizens.

Next, we'll have a bill declaring GWB king of the world.

Your not too far off. there has been talk of repealing the two term limit on presidents :( .
As for the patriot act, well a lot of us knew this would happen all along, just like we knew the war on terror decleration would be used in agressive actions agenst countries with no link to 9/11 or the terrorist groups that caused it. Lets face it this administration has used a tragidy in america to stear us towards a facist dictatorship.

Although I don't think Lame-o should be a scapegoat for the gov't. I think everybody here needs to take a deep breath and think rationally.

That and you're lucky you're alive now and not when Teddy was the preisdent, you'd be shittin' in your shorts with some of the stuff he did in office.

I think it's highly unlikely 9/11 was allowed by the government. Firstly, what would be to gain? Extra power? These extra powers for the federal government are provided during wartimes already. The economy tumbled in the wake of the attacks threatening the reelectability of the president and other elected war supportors. A manufacturing based economy in a worldwide war would grow, but a service based economy (ours) involved in many small skermishes (war on terror) will, and has suffered. And this is hardly a fascist dictatorship. What rights have you lost? How have you suffered at the hands of the tyrannical government? Who in your family have they killed? To use such terminology cheapens the costs others have paid who are the victims of fascism, such as those in germany, italy and spain. In all honesty, in the history of the united states, most war time presidents have outright suspended many more rights and priveleges than what has happened recently. Lincoln had reporters arrested on a whim, along with thousands of suspected southern sympathisers, many of whom were excecuted without trial (or proof). Some "hacker" getting an extra harsh punishment hardly compares.
BTW all, this is a great topic, look forward to seeing further replies.

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Originally posted here by tonybradley

Most of the provisions of the Patriot Act have deadlines after which our rights are supposed to be returned to us. I recommend that you keep an eye on that situation and make sure your elected officials understand that you would like your rights back if its all the same to them.

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That is like the excise tax on rubber, that was suppose to last only as long as World War II. That was almost 60 years ago, but the tax is still here.

Hi,

We have identical experiences over here in England..................rubber tax?.........our income tax (on your wages) was brought in in the early 1800's to finance the Napoleonic Wars........still there, and has to be voted in every year.

Governments aren't callous :rolleyes: .........during WWII the British had the Enigma machine, and had cracked the cypher (due to some German guy leaving the guest account active and not changing the default security settings........not much changes huh?). We knew about the new German radio navigation beam for their bombers and that our city of Coventry was the target............. Prime Minister Winston Churchill forbade any unusual response, or the Germans would know that we had Enigma..............thousands lost their lives.....far more than 9/11.

One of the reasons that America came into the First World War was the torpedoing of the Lusitania?..............killed a lot of American civilians. Winston Churchill was "First Lord of the Admiralty"..........kind of Navy chief................the Lusitania was a British merchant cruiser AND WAS LISTED IN JANE'S FIGHTING SHIPS as such...........a totally legitimate target for a U-boat commander. It was apparently on Mr. Churchill's instructions that she made the voyage............I wonder why????

You American guys knew Pearl Harbour was going to happen, yet you let it?...............I have no time for politicians.....we, the People, are just an inconvenience they have to come crawling to every few years?

Good Luck and God Bless

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And this is hardly a fascist dictatorship. What rights have you lost?

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Well, lets see:

Section 202 broadens the list of crimes for which the government can obtain a wiretap order to include essentially all felonies. Expires 12/31/2005

Section 209 allows the government to obtain electronically stored wire communications under the standard search warrant rather than having it covered by the wiretap statutes. Expires 12/31/2005

Section 210 allows the government to subpoena ISP information including records of your session times and durations as well as temporarily assigned network addresses. Additionally they can get your means and source of payment for services- so they can subpoena your credit card number. No expiration

Section 211 broadens the scope of certain sections governing cable companies to include the fact that many cable providers are also offering Internet access and therefore need to make the records and info available similar to other ISP's. No expiration

Section 212 allows ISP's to disclose confidential or private information in an emergency- such as if they have knowledge of one of their customers plotting a terrorist attack (previous law would have made them civilly liable for breaching privacy) as well as allowing them to share more types of information. This provision ALLOWS them to do this, but does not compel them to. Expires 12/31/2005

Section 216 broadens the scope of the pen register and trap and trace statute so that they are applicable on the Internet and other computer networks as well as phone systems; broadens the scope of such orders to be effective nationwide; and requires law enforcement to file a special report with the court when they use a pen/trap order to install their own monitoring device onto computers belonging to a public provider. The wording was also changed to reflect that a pen/trap may be software or hardware and is not always a "device". No expiration

Section 217 allows potential victims to enlist the support of law enforcement to monitor computer networks and try to identify and apprehend intruders. It also defines a computer intruder as anyone who accesses a protected computer. Expires 12/31/2005

Section 220 allows the federal government to subpoena records outside of the district which issued the subpoena. This allows them to perform email search warrants without having to involve local authorities in the district where the ISP is located. Expires 12/31/2005

Then there is a whole list of changes to Computer Fraud and Abuse Act to broaden the scope of its application and increase the penalties associated. For the source of my information and for many more details on these changes and how they affect you see Appendix C of Incident Response by Douglas Schweitzer.

Between this and the DMCA I would say that a WHOLE lot of my rights have been revoked. All of a sudden the government has carte blanche to search and sieze at will without the normal rights to legal search and siezure and due process afforded me by the Constitution of this country.

In the name of national security and fighting terrorism the current regime has revoked the rights of everyone. Just because the changes are INTENDED for terrorists doesn't mean you have to be a terrorist for them to use them against you. Case in point- Adrian Lamo.

This only scratches the surface of the illegal and corrupt crap this government has pulled- read The Best Democracy Money Can Buy by Greg Palast or go rent the movie Bowling for Columbine.

I have no doubt a government can be callous. The united states government was very callous and cruel to my arapaho ancestors, and the british government has a long history of callousness in regards to ireland. I do, however, still wish to play devil's advocate and ask what has our government to gain and what is the proof of conspiracy? I'm just always suspcious of conspiracy theories. Secrets known by large groups of well-scrutinized public people are very difficult to keep (such as watergate). That is, conspiracies, particularly governmental ones, are made public quickly it seems.
I too do share concern over suspension or permanent alteration of rights and liberties. I just took contest over the fascism analogy. Yes, rights have been lost, but not the total suspension of basic human rights as what happens under real fascism.

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Originally posted here by KorpDeath
Although I don't think Lame-o should be a scapegoat for the gov't. I think everybody here needs to take a deep breath and think rationally.

That and you're lucky you're alive now and not when Teddy was the preisdent, you'd be shittin' in your shorts with some of the stuff he did in office.

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While I agree that its probably better to be alive now than then in regards to some of the things done under past presidents and politicians(detention camps for asian-americans during WW2, the McCarthy communist hunts), its still not a good idea to sit on our collective butts as the sunset provision on the Patriot Act(s) get extended indefinately and our privacy gets flushed down the drain.

As for the whole fascist government thing, its not there yet, but if it goes unchecked long enough it probably will happen. Perhaps the word fascist is wrong for this context, but that would be better judged by someone with more of a political vocabulary than I.

tonybradley > ill have to check out that movie and the book after I finish the one I'm reading, and while on the subject of money and/or politics, check out Pigs at the Trough by Arianna Huffington, its a bit more corporate than political, but still a good read as far as where all our money really ends up.