Check out this book I'm reading.

"It took a lot of crap to make me give a damn. I wish that we lived in a golden age, where ethical behavior was assumed; where technically competent programmers respected the privacy of others; where we didn't need locks on our computers.

I'm saddened to find talented programmers devoting their time to breaking into comupters. Instead of developing new ways to help each other, vandals make viruses and logic bombs. The result? People blame every software quirk on viruses, public domain software lies underused, and our networks become sources of paranoia.

Fears for security really do louse up the free flow of information. Science and social progrss only take place in the open. The paranoia that hackers leave in their wake only stifles our work... forcing administrators to disconnect our links to networked communities.

Yes, you can make secure computers and networks. Systems that outsiders can't easily break into. But they're usually difficult to use and unfriendly. And slow. And expensive. Computer communications already costs too much--adding crytographic encoding and elaborate authentication schemes will only make it worse.

On the other hand, our networks seem to have become the targets of (and channels for) international espionage. Come to think of it, what would I do if I were an intelligence agent? To collect secret information, I might train an agent to speak a foreign language, fly her to a distant country, supply her with bribe money, and worry that she might be caught or fed duplicitous information.

Or I could hire a dishonest computer programmer. Such a spy need never leave his home country. Not much risk of an internationally embarrassing incident. It's cheap, too--a few small computers and some network connections. And the information returned is fresh--straight from the target's word processing system.

Today there's only one country that's not reachable from your telephone: Albania. What does this mean for the future of espionage?"

-Cliff Stoll from the book The Cuckoo's Egg. True story even.

Security does not necessarily mean it's difficult to use.

And wishing for a perfect society where you could implicitly trust everyone will get you nowhere. People have wished this for centuries to no avail, and yet progress is still made in spite of this impediment.

- X

Security makes it mostly more difficult to use. Along with passwords and having to run a virus scan every week, I can understand where this guy's coming from. And when someone breaks into your computers and you have to change all the passwords, it is difficult getting over a thousand people to pick new passwords.

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And wishing for a perfect society where you could implicitly trust everyone will get you nowhere. People have wished this for centuries to no avail, and yet progress is still made in spite of this impediment.

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On the contrary. Wishing creates a certain striving towards your goal, I think. If people actually gave a damn about other's privacy this world would be a better place.

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Originally posted here by Godly Soup
On the contrary. Wishing creates a certain striving towards your goal, I think. If people actually gave a damn about other's privacy this world would be a better place.

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But it still hasn't changed anything thus far in the history of the world. People still put curtains up, boundaries down on paper, and fences around their houses. Sure, they "wish" they didn't have to do it, but that wishing isn't changing anything...

- X

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"It took a lot of crap to make me give a damn. I wish that we lived in a golden age, where ethical behavior was assumed; where technically competent programmers respected the privacy of others; where we didn't need locks on our computers.

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The sad thing is folks, I am actually old enough to remember that era..........................

:eek:

Bring back 80 column punch cards................that will screw the skiddies :D

"You have asked to log in as Administrator. Please bring the correct punch cards, in the proper pseudo-random order, and feed them one at a time. If you are the real Administrator, this should take no more than 10 seconds. If you are a hacker, it should also take no more than 10 seconds, but congratulations for being a perseverant bastard."

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Originally posted here by Godly Soup
Security makes it mostly more difficult to use. Along with passwords and having to run a virus scan every week, I can understand where this guy's coming from. And when someone breaks into your computers and you have to change all the passwords, it is difficult getting over a thousand people to pick new passwords.

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Of course it does. Security has always been a trade off against useability. Nothing new being said here. And often, that security is preceeded by the words a false sense of...

It's not at all difficult getting those people to make said change. You expire each and every one of their passwords. They can change them, or they can not use the system. Simple.

Cliff wrote a great book. I recommend that one to many people. But please recall his own description of himself; he's a hippy astronomer with some computer skills that lost his funding in the department and shifted to the Computer department because of same skills and their need for a body. I don't like to normally stereotype, but in this case I think it might apply; if Cliff is a hippy, of course he is going to want for a better world of harmony and mutual respect. Don't we all, at some level?

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On the contrary. Wishing creates a certain striving towards your goal, I think. If people actually gave a damn about other's privacy this world would be a better place.

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Wishing creates a certain striving for SOME people. Some of us WISH the reactionary, fundamentalist, extremist religious righteous believers would stop killing/maiming/supressing/antagonizing/opressing those who believe differently. How has that wishing done one bit of good against the suicide bombers?

I understand where you are coming from, but security and technology and the vulnerabilities we are all faced with are based on the same human weaknesses we face in society everyday; they've simply been transported to a different medium where separate social norms apply (or do NOT apply), things like anonymity and reciprocity are vastly different, and morals/ethics play to an ENTIRELY different tune because the first few points I made.

Why do you lock the door to your home? To keep professional thieves from cleaning you out? Or to keep teenagers, obnoxious neighbors, and transients out? The professional thief, if s/he finds your domicile worth his time, will not be detered by a Schlage #1355B.

The same goes for car's, storage property, etc. Ever see "The Club" for cars? That thing that locks onto your steering wheel and makes it so it's really hard/impossible to steer the car? That is the most ridiculous waste of money ever, IMHO. An intelligent or determined thief can bypass that in the time it takes to cut through the 1/4" of metal inside your steering wheel with a hacksaw (less than 30 seconds if they have the upper body strength). And if I'm stealing your $30,000 Prelude, I don't give a rats ass about damaging the $300 steering wheel.

I really do understand your sentiment, as I believe does Xierox, but I think we have a more realistic view, in our opinions, on human nature.

While I agree with both X and Zen, I understand where you are comming from. Cliff's book generated the same feelings in me when I read it the first time years ago. It is an excellent read, and it does make you sit back and "what if..."and "wouldn't it be nice if...." I guess thought provoking is the best way to describe it.

Another book, thou completely fictional, that is starts making you think about peoples motivations and security is Bad Memory by Duane Franklet. While not even remotely the same as Cliff Stoll's book... it WILL make you sit back and go "Hmmmmmmm......"

:)

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Cliff wrote a great book. I recommend that one to many people. But please recall his own description of himself; he's a hippy astronomer with some computer skills that lost his funding in the department and shifted to the Computer department because of same skills and their need for a body. I don't like to normally stereotype, but in this case I think it might apply; if Cliff is a hippy, of course he is going to want for a better world of harmony and mutual respect. Don't we all, at some level?

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Hey don't diss the hippies man, lol. Yes we all want the world to live in harmony! (Or we should.) I'm not trying to be relgious or anything either. I believe the term is "free thinking" or somethin along that line. Anyway thanks for your

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understanding

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as all of you have said and I shall have to check out that book MrCoffee, thanks.