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So now they decide that this (explicative) deserves to get life in prison so the country that he was fighting against can foot the bill for him to live in a country club prison for the rest of his life.
Sounds like American justice to me. What do you think?
I think you've to re-read the entry for 'justice' in your dictionary.
So you "attempt" to kill Americans and side with known terrorist organizations whom are known to have kill many, many Americans. Then in turn those Americans put you in a hotel for the rest of your life?
I realize your not pro death penalty but your also not feeling the disgust that many many AMERICANS are feeling.
So, what do I need to re-read?
the text-book definition of 'justice'
Main Entry: jus·tice
Pronunciation: 'j&s-t&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English & Old French; Old English justice, from Old French justice, from Latin justitia, from justus
Date: 12th century
1 a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b : JUDGE c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
2 a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : RIGHTEOUSNESS c : the quality of conforming to law
3 : conformity to truth, fact, or reason : CORRECTNESS
I don't think it's fair,or just, to the other millions of Americans that this guy live. Better?
Now what exactly is your point?
I voted to leave him in the desert. I considered shoot him -but that involves putting him in prison for 12 + years (don't want my taxes paying for that). If they leave him in the desert it should be the middle of the desert with no towns/villages less then 3 days walk away -with no supplies (food/water/sun block).
Cheers,
-D
I watched the whole thing happen live on CNN I feel no need for mercy
My point is this: The first image shooting through my mind when reading your post was a scene out of some old western, where someone is lynched by a mob. Your country has a justice-sytem - let that do its job.
As for John Walker - he is a man that has his believes. He fought for his believes. He most likely had nothing to do with any terrorist attack, and he was fighting on Afghan soil - in a way, he was defending his believes.
Now, I certainly don't agree with his believes, and I don't think he should go unpunished either - but not every German soldier was shot after WWII. He was just a footman, nationality didn't have anything to do with it.
I don't think he should be considered an American to begin with, so your comment about our justice system is a bit off.
He should not have the same rights as say our military men and yet our gov't is treating him as such. I think it is wrong. He is, by all accounts, a traitor and as such should be treated as such. Firing squad. End of story.
P.S. Maybe we should set him up in the Netherlands, you don't seem to mind his actions?
I do mind his actions, I just don't mind them more than any other low-ranking Taliban-fighter.
And tell me how someone who is not to be considered an American could be a traitor anyway?
Okay but how many low-ranking Taliban were American? He is American, is that so hard to understand?
Here, if you need to be spoon-fed then I'll do it.
An American goes to a foreign country and engages in trying to harm American nationals, namely the American military. He knowingly engaged in these activities alongside known terrorists and was proud of it and since he has not been captured, technically he is still an American. He is then captured. At that point he should give up his rights as a American citizen and is therefore not able to have the same rights as someone who is. Understand. If you need to more clarification, go look up the definition. (sound familar?)
I'm so sick of you bleeding hearts.
Quote
You are saying that he should not be considered an American, but still should be tried as an American traitor?
No I'm saying he should be shot. Simple. His momma raised a traitor. End of story.
This is one of the worst solutions:Quote:
No I'm saying he should be shot. Simple. His momma raised a traitor. End of story.
1) He will be a hero for others
2) His death will inspire others to hate America
3) Death penalty is inhuman; it will make the judges to be the same criminals as they are convicting.
I have the solution for you sucker bleeding hearts.
Dump him in the middle of Kabul with a sign that says "I helped the Taliban persecute you." Then let the natives take care of him.
They are a fair and just people, aren't they? LOL
As far as him being a hero to anyone. The only people he'd be a hero to would be the people that hate America anyway. And as far as more people hating America, that's fine. You can't please everybody.
The message you're going to send to the world by just putting him in jail is that it's okay to be a traitorous swine. The worst you'll get for betraying your country is a slap on the wrists. That sounds great to me.
His momma should've slapped him silly. Oh wait, you're probably against corporal punishment too.
And your response would be?
P.S. Would you want to pay for a traitor of your nation to live in a comfy country club?
Alright KorpDeath, you have a point...
But, what will Taliban soldiers do with Americans?
probably they will kill them for the same reason that kills JW.
So my point is by giving him the death penalty you will lower yourself to the level of the criminal.
If you kill JW he will win, his message will survive. If you isolate him you will win. You have the moral and the legal power to punish and to keep punishing (by taking his freedom). If the State kills him he will take his freedom, it will not be a punishment at all !
What do you think is worse: killed at once (and go straight to heaven, cause the Islam believes in live after death) or not be able to be free at any chanche; never leave prison?
When the State gives him the death penalty it will not show some higher moral degree than the convicted, on the long run this will undermine the position of the state itself.
For instance: In my country many people were killed after World War II because they 'were' traitors, still numbers off innocent ppl had to die cause 'justice' made some mistakes... if you kill some1 there's no way to take another decision in the future. You can not put them back in society...
John Walker is considered by many to be American, but I'm fairly sure that's only because he was born here, giving him immediate status as an American. Then, until he was 18, he was under his parents' total control by law (unless he sued for independence, which would be difficult to win). He's only twenty-something now, right? So he really didn't have much of a choice until a few years ago about his nationality.
So should he really be considered a traitor? Perhaps only if he wished to maintain his original nationality, which he does not seem to.
I know not the whole story, so I leave that to you to think about and decide upon.
more (perhaps) in the world's longest thread...
thank you.
If the US congress had exercized its
constitutional duty and declared WAR,
then Walker's legal status would
not be open to debate.
During the vietnam war, american actress, Jane Fonda
went to North Vietnam and did propaganda work
for them.
The US government couldn't touch her.
It's too late to call for Walker to be punished.
After a long controversial trial, he will go free.
You heard it here first.
:cool:
I couldn't care less about the Islamic belief of reward in the afterlife for martyrdom.Quote:
Originally posted by VictorKaum
Alright KorpDeath, you have a point...
But, what will Taliban soldiers do with Americans?
probably they will kill them for the same reason that kills JW.
So my point is by giving him the death penalty you will lower yourself to the level of the criminal.
If you kill JW he will win, his message will survive. If you isolate him you will win. You have the moral and the legal power to punish and to keep punishing (by taking his freedom). If the State kills him he will take his freedom, it will not be a punishment at all !
What do you think is worse: killed at once (and go straight to heaven, cause the Islam believes in live after death) or not be able to be free at any chanche; never leave prison?
When the State gives him the death penalty it will not show some higher moral degree than the convicted, on the long run this will undermine the position of the state itself.
For instance: In my country many people were killed after World War II because they 'were' traitors, still numbers off innocent ppl had to die cause 'justice' made some mistakes... if you kill some1 there's no way to take another decision in the future. You can not put them back in society...
I could spout a bunch of christian rhetoric at you but that wouldn't change the fact that that jackass and every other jackass that would do the same thing needs to be made examples of.
I realize it might be difficult for you to understand my rage at this lil' puke. But I take pride in being an American. I love my country and it's people.(no matter how dysfunctional they are). So for this happen is totally unacceptable.
I tell you what.... for his safety, he'd better move to the netherlands or some other soft EU country. He won't be safe here in the states.Quote:
Originally posted by rcgreen
If the US congress had exercized its
constitutional duty and declared WAR,
then Walker's legal status would
not be open to debate.
During the vietnam war, american actress, Jane Fonda
went to North Vietnam and did propaganda work
for them.
The US government couldn't touch her.
It's too late to call for Walker to be punished.
After a long controversial trial, he will go free.
You heard it here first.
:cool:
The whole "Traitor" bit is mainly an emotional reaction, but let's face it, did he spy for the enemy under false pretenses? Did he manuever into a position of power and work for a shadowy conspiracy?
The point is, it isn't *trickery*, which, to me, is a large part of treason. He LEFT this country, and he decided to fight for what he believed in (however misguided it may be). Treat him like any other captured footsoldier, his original nationality is irrelevant in this conflict, unless you're trying to say that ethnicity is an issue, and it isn't. The conflict is essentially political. (And no, the conflict is not religious, that's just the justification that each side uses to some degree.)
America? Nationality? America is a nation primarily of immigrants! It's not as if there is an easy boolean value for each person as to if they are "American", it's a very fuzzy line. Also, as Kezil pointed out, he had no legal previous choice over his nationality.
- It's not the question you believe in Islamic afterlife (which I do NOT) but the question if he and his 'peer group' does.Quote:
Originally posted by KorpDeath
I couldn't care less about the Islamic belief of reward in the afterlife for martyrdom.
I could spout a bunch of christian rhetoric at you but that wouldn't change the fact that that jackass and every other jackass that would do the same thing needs to be made examples of.
I realize it might be difficult for you to understand my rage at this lil' puke. But I take pride in being an American. I love my country and it's people.(no matter how dysfunctional they are). So for this happen is totally unacceptable.
- Which kind of Christian believe do you follow?????????
Didn't Jezus himself said never to retaliate?
Do you know the story about Job? Read your Christian holy book (new and old testemony) hermeneutical not litteral and comeback.
- About the pride thing: Do you kill for pride?
Didn't Christian believe said: 'You should not kill' ?
I agree that the 11/9 thing is unacceptable and that appropriate means are necessary but like Terr stated he left the country to fight for his believe, so as you fight for yours. There's no moral difference between you and JW if you kill him, cause you would both kill for ideological reasons...
Oh come on. We're talking about what some young, dumb, lil' rich bastard did. Not my beliefs.
I just said I could spout rhetoric that doesn't make me a christian, I was just making a point.
I personally feel betrayed as do allot of my fellow Americans. That's what the post was about.
I know I can't change the fact thay what happened, happened. And I have no control over how my gov't treats him. I'm certainly not going to march on Washington D.C. to get them to change their minds, but he should pay a dear price for turning his back on the country that gave him so much opportunity to succeed. That's all.
And as far as there being no moral difference between me and him , you couldn't be more wrong. I won't go shoot my brothers and sisters because I change my religion. Nor will I go to another country and TRY to kill my brothers and sisters. So, you see there is a difference. A BIG F#$KING DIFFERENCE!
BTW - the christians also said "I kill in the name of God!" or haven't you heard of the "holy crusades"? And that was meant to convert or kill.
The Christians did crusades but I consider the Crusades as a big mistake... the 'christian' crusades were not at all Christian... in no way they reflect the today's interpretations of religion.
About the moral difference: you will kill at least one brother you spoke of: JW.
Yes, when you consider him an American who had changed believe and then started killing his brothers and sisters, you are just an American who has not changed believe and started killing (or shouting to kill) some brother cause he changed his believe.
were is freedom now? -> go look at the Ammendements
The only difference is: you didn't had the strenght (guts) to go and fight for your opinion, JW did and now you want the state to kill him for his courage? (this is to provoke you)
I'am not saying that what JW did was right, no way, but when you use some motivations to make your point you need to use true ones...
the man is by text book refinition a trator, and this is a state of war were in, even though it dosn't feel much like a war. The man should be shot.
If you don't live here than you might not know much about our prison system.
first theres the prison system that you, the guy next door and myself would wind up in if we committed a crime.
then there's the "minimum security"facility. where so called white collar criminals (people with influence) go to when they can't get out of it.
Here there are private rooms with baths and tvs. they work for a couple of hours on the farm (garden). and at most of these facilities their are tennis courts and hourse back riding. It really is a poor mans country club.
personally, i havn't been following whats going on with this kid from california, sounds like he should be in a mental institution, but from what korpdeath is saying it sounds like hes going 'minimum security' and thats just not right. that's an insult to the american people.
many europeans think americans are barbarians, don't forget it. :-)
T€ÐØß1
You must remove any cancer,no matter how small,to stop the spread of the rest of the the dieses. I was in Lebanon from 82-87 and I can tell you it can't be cured by passive means and backing down, you must set examples. HANG-EM HIGH
Just my opinion~thor:) :( :mad:
280+ Marines would agree with me.:shootem:
Thank you very much. Not for just agreeing with me but for being a patriotic and caring American.Quote:
Originally posted by thor
You must remove any cancer,no matter how small,to stop the spread of the rest of the the dieses. I was in Lebanon from 82-87 and I can tell you it can't be cured by passive means and backing down, you must set examples. HANG-EM HIGH
Just my opinion~thor:) :( :mad:
280+ Marines would agree with me.:shootem:
And VictorKaum: I am not that easily provoked. you may not see a difference between the JW and myself but I know in my heart we are worlds apart.
I won't bother trying to provoke you..
'nuff said.
You're implying that he is killing his (not literal) brothers and sisters...Quote:
Originally posted by KorpDeath
I won't go shoot my brothers and sisters because I change my religion. Nor will I go to another country and TRY to kill my brothers and sisters.
What do you think *our* side is doing over there right now? I'll give you a few guesses.
According to your little definiton here, if he's committed fractricide, then both sides are guilty of it. Should we ask the Taliban that any captured American soldiers should be shot instead of imprisoned?
What captured Americans. There are none. That point is moot.
For all intents and purposes we've "won". If any war can be won.
And you know if they did capture any Americans and they were later found out to be Taliban than I would think that they would be killed, not shot cause they're too poor to waste the bullets. But I hear beheadings are still practiced there, even today.
So what's your point? Not trying to be a jerk or anything I just want to know what you're gettin' at.
He's not doing anything that our own military hasn't done.Quote:
Originally posted by KorpDeath
So what's your point?
Except, you missed the small fact that he betrayed his country?
I mean last I heard that was a big offense, right.
Our military is there to ensure that the people hiding and aiding terrorists are removed from power, not to mention the way they treated their own people, it was babaric.
Do you not understand. Go look up treason. And then come back and we'll debate.
Here is the thing. Five years ago in Afghanistan what choice did the current taliban fighters have? Starve and live in poverty, or join the Taliban and eat regularly. Think about it, if those were your options, you'd probably join your country's military.Quote:
Originally posted by Guus
I do mind his actions, I just don't mind them more than any other low-ranking Taliban-fighter.
After this is over, the rank-and-file Taliban should be allowed to return to their homes, as we(America) have done (for the most part) with foreign POWs in the past.
This man, however, left his home country purposely to fight against it. He wasn't forced to choose between fighting and a life of poverty, he wanted to kill Americans.
can the debate, hang the son of a bitch......
quote by Terr
"What do you think *our* side is doing over there right now? I'll give you a few guesses.
Defending our country
According to your little definiton here, if he's committed fractricide, then both sides are guilty of it. Should we ask the Taliban that any captured American soldiers should be shot instead of imprisoned? [/B][/QUOTE]"
We don't have to ask, they would do it anyway...I know..I don't hate Islam but I do have a problem with people who try and kill me, as they did in Lebanon. I admit I'm not too open minded because of it [Lebanon] but think about it, we, the U.S. don't train and teach our people to kill inocent people, much less in such a cowardly way.
Heard that one before, is it time to drag out ole Oliver North? or maybe mention that the Talibans has had US support earlier.Quote:
Defending our country
That no-one has take their fight to american soil before acctualy surprises me. It was just a matter of time.
My ex-gf´s mother and father was tortured by the wankers america supported in El Salvador. But you don´t realy care do you, just as long as nothing happens on american soil.
That no latin americans has gone into the house of congress with grenades and machine guns is beyond me.
Is it not obvious that when backing dictators and extreme right-wing governments it´s gonna back fire sooner or later.
And maybe it´s time to point out that most of the crap would not happen if the states didn´t have military base(s?) in Saudi Arabia and put some REAL pressure on the Israelis to solve their conflict.
And for Walker, he went to a regime that was formerly supported by the states. (as mentioned earlier) Did he have anything to do with Al-Qaeda? No, don´t think so. He did what he thought was right and fought for what he believed in.
How about the Wako incident, they shot at american authorities in the name of God, why not hang those too?
If not, please explain the difference to me cause I sure can´t see it.
Maybe it´s time to slow down and think about the actions before they are made.
anyone seen the rambo movie (3 I think) where when all seems lost, John Rambo is saved by the courages mujahedien soldiers (talliban)??
I think John Walker did see that movie...
Close... we don't want things happening on our soil or to our imports(oil). Good start though, but you don't hate us enough yet.Quote:
But you don´t realy care do you, just as long as nothing happens on american soil.
Hate you? Who? Me? Nah no way, but what I do hate is peoples ability to be completely ignorant of what´s happening outside their borders, completely buying government/media propaganda. Or even disrespecting other people´s choices without taking a deeper look into why.
And why should I hate you? What do you base that on? I´m besides criticizing the foreign policy and intelligence agencies, pointing out that there are more sides to the dice than the one pointing up.
Just abit of sarcasm, I dont think you actually hate us, I just felt the comment about us not caring about anyone else abit harsh.
Yes we supported the Taliban (not political support mind you, we never accepted them as the government of Afghanistan), but we did it to try and help them against the former soviet union, not so they could torture somebody's family.
shoot him = 5
and now looks like hang him = 5 as i added my vote!
but can i also say you mised the old english death penalty - Quartoxed, which i have renamed - you were draged through the street tied to a horse then shot in arms and legs, then hung / stonned followed by being sliced and diced.
now if this was on the vote ........ I would of voted 4 it :D
I concede to the point that it was harsh. Sorry about that.
(from one thing to another)
Let me make an example. If say an independant american "patriot" got involved in a war somewhere against say communism (or Islam because it´s more popular today) and was captured.
How would the reactions be from america? Would the media print stories about how people would want to hang him, well yes I believe so. Now take a look at the earlier posts of this thread. Just because people don´t agree with him they wanna make him a traitor.
But stoping a lunatic priest and people start to shout about the constitutional rights.
Note: If you (not you specificly shkuey) are realy interested in finding out why I harbor anti-american sentiments against it´s agencies and foreign policy I recommend the book "The secret wars of the CIA 1981-1987" by Bob Woodward. (yes, the watergate guy)
Yes, it´s old but read it and then take another look at the world. It gives another perspective on things.
You can buy it at amazon.com, 5$ for a used one.