Slavery reparations

http://www.lp.org/press/archive.php?...iew&record=600

"The battle cry for reparations has far more to do with the color green than with the colors black and white," said Steve Dasbach, executive director of the Libertarian Party. "Forcing people who had nothing to do with slavery to pay others who were never enslaved is the height of injustice and will only exacerbate racial tension in America."

"Millions of white Americans who have no reason to dislike blacks may find one the moment they're forced to pay a race tax," Dasbach said. "The only people who will benefit will be the pandering politicians who get to dole out the money - as race relations get worse.

"Besides, decades of other race-conscious government programs, such as minority set-asides and hiring quotas, have actually expanded the racial divide. Instead of learning from those failures, politicians seem determined to create more of them."

Justice also demands that the only individuals who are punished are those personally responsible for violating the rights of others, he said.

"No one alive today had anything to do with the morally repugnant policy of slavery," he said. "So confiscating their money for reparations amounts to punishing people for crimes committed by someone else - more than 100 years ago.

"And what of Asian-Americans, Latino Americans, and other immigrants whose ancestors never even owned slaves?" asked Dasbach. "What sense does it make to force them to pay reparations?"

You know, I'm not a racist person by any means, but this just makes me mad. It seems more that people like Al Sharpton and others are the most racist people of all. I didn't do anything to enslave anyone.

We give them affirmative action and other things to help balance things out, but everytime we try and do something all they do is complain and say they want more. It really sickens me.

A friend of mine in college lost her scholarship because she got under a 3.0 one semester, at the same time she overheard a black female that got a 2.3 GPA and got to keep that same scholarship. If thats not racist against white people, I don't know what is.

I agree that the enslavement was a horrible time in our history, although that was almost 100 years ago. They now have all the same rights as other races, and then some with the affirmative action. I just wonder if their demands are ever going to end.

And what about the Pizza Hut and Domino's owners down in Florida who are refusing to send their delivery drivers into certain neighborhoods at night because they are repeatedly beaten and robbed? These guys are being called racist just for trying to protect their businesses and employees! I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned the caucasian 'race' has paid it's dues for past atrocities and the 'race card' is over-played and over-rated. It's time to stop looking at one's color and start judging by character, which is the only thing that counts in the measure of a man (or woman).

one thing that i would like to point out:
black africans rounded up slaves. black africans put those same "brothers" on the boat in shackles and treated them like animals. black africans sold those same "brothers" to white men when they arrived in MANY places. america was not the only place that had slaves. and not all slaves were black. this whole thing has been blown way out of propoertion by people who would rather feel oppressed and leech off of society. those same people have the same job opportunities that i do, same opportunity for education. all they have to do is play the game.

In all honesty, the biggest reason that this is still an ongoing issue is the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons out there who are making a small fortune by "Throwing wood on the fire". I am honestly sick to death of all of it. If the government wants to pay reparations, then they can do it w/ someone else's money....I'm moving to Canada!

This issue has come up time and time again for quite a few years and while I realize it was a terrible time in history, how would they ever create a fair payment plan? By fair I'm saying, realize that America is a giant melting pot and my family for instance came here early in WW II from Holland. We weren't even around to be held responsible to today's generation of Black Americans wanting reparations. Do they plan on a division of payments based on what percentage of your family (through marriage etc) was on American soil during that time in history or will it just be an across the board tax?
I'm just so tired of the victim stance. I could be screaming about what my family lost during the war, the members that perished in the camps, am I? No, it was history. We learned from it and have moved on. I look at a small diamond ring on my right hand that was recently passed down to me by my mother, having known since I was a little girl that it would someday be mine and I know that it was one of the few pieces my great grandma managed to escape from Holland with. When I look at it I feel some sadness, wondering what she went through but at the same time I feel her strength. I don't stop to wonder what could have been but I move on to make what is, better.
I've even heard one argument, wish I could find the source but I can't remember where I read it (Print, some magazine) awhile back but the generalities of it stuck in my head. A Black American, interviewed for this article on reparations said that while yes, a lot of slaves, upon being freed may not have gotten their 40 acres and a mule are in a much better situation generations down the road than they would have been if they had not been kidnapped and sold into slavery. Kind of makes you ponder fate a bit doesn't it?

It boils down to, in my mind at least, that life is what we make of it. This is not a wrong by one person but many and it was a time in our history that we should be and are ashamed of but, once more if you know your history, slavery has been around since the dawn of time and just about every race has spent some time in shackles.

I'll hop off my soap box now...just couldn't not post on this thread...

TC

I agree fully with the sentiment expressed here about reparations. I do not agree with them, I do not feel that we should be paying for sins and crimes committed over 130 years ago. My ancestry, as far as I have researched, did not own slaves but were poor white trash in themselves.

However one big caution is the generalizations in some of these posts. Rev. Sharpton and the Rev. Jesse Jackson do not speak for African Americans. They represent a small percentage of them. Just as Louis Farrakhan does. They have an agenda which often seems far more political than helpful for African Americans. But we need to be careful about lumping all African Americans into this group whining for more.

I agree that this sort of thing breads racism and does not bring justice. I do not believe America is fair and that racism is a thing of the past. I do believe that many African Americans (and other immigrants) have it harder. I also believe it is better than it ever has. I believe that some races have shown how to overcome the prejudice that remains. Rather than looking at the African Americans who cannot seem to make it, look at those who do or even those who are successful in their own way. They may not be rich but they are hard working, raise their family and provide for them, and are contributing members to society. Able to hold their heads high in anyone's presence. Also look at those immigrants who have swiftly overcome hardship and succeeded. No one talks about the plight of the Asians. Why not? They were one of the most oppressed immigrant populations ever to come to America. Now they are one of the most prosperous, best educated, and most dynamic. When schools talk about standardizing tests they often complain far more about Asian Americans blowing the curve than White Americans.

I believe African Americans should look to those examples. I believe White Americans should too. Hard work, Education, Sacrificing now for a better tomorrow. Working for your family, your kids, your grandchildren. These are the actions which rise people above their current circumstances.

One last thing. I am a lucky man. Very lucky. Buy my grandparents were not. My Grandfather on my father's side had to leave school in Junior High to help support the family. My grandmother never finished high school. But they believed in education. They raised three children by making shoes in a factory, were self taught (never do a crossword puzzle with my Grandmother, she will embarass you), and were very hard workers. I was blessed to know them both before they passed on. Their children? My Uncle has a Masters Degree in Business, my Aunt has a PhD in Mathematics and teaches continuing education to adults, my father has a PhD in Mechanical Engineering and taught for over 35 years until he retired. I have a bachelor's degee in Mechanical Engineering and now work as a NSO for a bank. But most of my success is not my own, I owe it to my Grandparents and my parents. They set the stage that allowed me to pursue my dreams. They had to work harder for less to leave me with more. It may not fulfill the me me me attitude we have today but it is the method whereby people can better themselves and better the lives of their children and grandchildren.

Sorry if I got on too much of a soap box.

P.S. Sometime I will tell you about my Grandparents on my Mom's side:) They were wonderful and inspirational too. I thank God for them every day even though they have gone to be with Him years ago.

This isn't even worth debating over. I never enslaved them, no one alive did. How do they know their ancestors were even slaves, they could have moved here in 1870. All it comes down to is, We need to get paid for what our great great grandparents did, even though we never had to go through it, we want paid. That is what they are saying.

As a descendant of slaves I guess I'll try and shed some light on this subject as I see it...
It's not just the American government that is responsible for slavery great Britain, France, Holland, etc but let me chime in on the U.S. my ancestors were not invited here they did not come to the shores of America to make a better life for themselves, they where bought here to work for the whites... I hear alot of people say I wasn't even born then what do I have to do with slavery, well look at it this way. alot of companies(Aetna, csx fleet financia,etcl) where around then and benefited from the blood sweat and tears of my ancestors these companies you do business with today you work for them, you invest in them and collect a pension from them when you buy insurance from them you get a better rate then I do! America should pay her debts... I pay my taxes to a government that enslaved my ancestors. Your founding fathers are Hippocrates, if they really believed in their ideology of a free society then why did slavery ever exist here in America? I'm not just speaking for African Americans, but alot of people who came over from china and help build the railroads where ****ed by the usa along with native Americans, what about my grandfather who risked his life fighting in the pacific and Korea to come home to north Carolina and not be served in a restaurant or access to the law equally? my step dad and uncle where both in Vietnam fighting to help other people on behalf of America and the constitution that supported slavery hmmmmm but you have nothing to do with it? Look deep and hard at what's going on around you. You’re guilty by association and taxes. You say hard work and an education is all one needs to make it in this society, my ancestors worked hard in the cotton and sugarcane fields, denied and education denied to speak their native language and practice their culture, so the whites could sit on their asses sipping mint julep. America has billions to fight iraq but, when is she going to give me my forty acres and a mule?

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You’re guilty by association and taxes.

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If that's really true then if my neighbors rob a bank and I have dinner with them tonight, do I stand trial becouse I associate with them?

No.

Do I hire a lawyer and take a trip to Germany and demand payment due to what could have been if only my family hadn't been thrown in concentration camps and their homes levelled by bombs, their jobs lost and in the case of a few, their lives? All based on what could have been? Would my great grandparents not have fled Holland if their lives were not in danger, probably not. Do I sit here and pull my hair out wondering what my life would have been like if their fortunes had not been lost?

No.

Do I agree that racist attitudes and ignorance is a way of life?

No.

I have this attitude that nothing is owed me. I take each day at a time and I move forward with what I have and make the best of it. I truly hope my assumption is wrong Nth Man but you sound very bitter and your bitterness is based on what has happened in the past and not on what has changed for the better.

I am not guilty by association and I refuse to accept that blame nor apologize for what happened over one hundred years ago. I will on the other hand, teach my children to know their history and to know that without knowing their history, it will be repeated and it is up to each and every one of us to not allow that to happen.

TC

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Just had another thought.

Should I start screaming for a recount on presidential elections that occured prior to my gender being allowed to vote? Who knows what this country would be like today if generations of women had been allowed to have their say politically, or hold jobs deemed fit only for a man? I want a complete replay of history!!!!


You see where this is going Nth Man? The winners here are the ones that pull themselves up and move on, succeeding despite perceived and actual road blocks. I take pride in knowing where we've come from and fighting hard to guarantee that it will never happen again.

My Mother was the first white teacher to teach in the (Federally) sponsored 'head start' program in a black school in Alabama. In the same year the 3 (white, Jewish?) civil rights workers were killed by the Ku Klux Klan in in Missisisippi, .. and my career soldier father was training (all race) troops for riot control.. The Klan burned a cross in our yard, we received death threats, and life was most unpleasant for some time. Uh, do i get a pass on the race tax? or maybe a bonus? Please, equity, NOW, is reasonable. But you wanna make ME pay for what my (non slave owning) ancestors did, out of my (non existent) investment in the 'power structure' of America? Any one wants to impose a 'Race Tax' is mebbe dim in the logic department. And anyone wants to impose one on ME is liable to gain more trouble than money, no matter WHO they are, or WHAT specious arguement they present. Hell, *I* want 40 acres and a mule, TOO. Speaking as a guy who's pink with little brown spots, and who has children of similar complexion, I proclaim my self proudly a 'spottie' and want all you white folks to paypal me a dollar. Any volunteers?

Nth Man the companies that exploited the black people are still exploiting us all, we shouldn't be devided on this. Its omly getting worse and seperating the common people into factions only gives them strength.

Its never really been the whites against the blacks, its really been the rich against the poor and any way they can keep someone down has allways been a gain to them. If they can keep a group un-educated and at odds with others so they can't get the big picture, so much the better.

The poor white, prior to the beginning of the 20th century, was forced to work double shifts plus, in inhuman conditions, at a wage that couldnt pay the rent for the rooms they had to rent from the company they worked for. They were forced to buy food from the company store. they were kept in debt so they couldn't leave. In 1911+- their were riots in the streets so choldren under 16 wern't forced to work more than 16 hours a day. people, white people were being oppressed. its not a race thing its a power thing. Those who have, want more, and they don't care who they have to hurt to get it. the more they can devide us, the less the truth is known.

Techichick, my family fled from Kracow, left their homes and buisnesses before the germans leveled the city so i know what your saying.

Well here's how i see it: My ancestors did not own, manage, or know any slaves, nor did they benefit in any way from those who may have. I do not own stock in any pre-civil war company nor do i benefit from one nor can i buy *anything* at a lower price than anybody else can. I do not have any $$ coming from any company who even existed before the Civil War but i do have some ancestors who fought and either died or were wounded grossly fighting for the North, and got exactly diddly for their efforts and wounds, limping through the rest of their painful lives trying to make a living for their families. I don't owe anybody anything nor do i owe any of thier ancestors anything, period. I work my a$$ off everyday, come home with sweat-rivulets washing little ditches down the dirt on my face, and i don't ask anybody to pay me for what my ancestors lost fighting for the cause of freedom for this country in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWI, WW2, and my own loss of civilian time and personal education and progress during Viet Nam. If my Congressmen or Senators vote any of my tax money for "reparations" past what they already spend on social programs for the disadvantaged of every possible description, he's gonna know he ain't got my vote next time around, and he can take my name off his mailing list. That's the way I see it, Bubba.

your are guilty if you know your neighbor robs banks buys fine bone china with the money and you eat off it then take the china home :) Sodamoca my grandfather never finished 3rd grade my grandmother never finished gradeschool they owed 22 acres of land in the south before the government took all but 7 thats 15 acres they will never see again... thats hard work! techiechick I'm assuming your great grandparents are jewish, there are lawyers and organizations that are fighting to get personal effects and treasure stolen from the jews during the war.

the powers that be set it up so that they and thier decendants would benefit from thier ill gotten gains for generations... america has made trillions from the blood of my ancestors should she not pay... oh she'd rather invest it by sending troops to iraq? the only return on that kind of investment is bodybags, bastards and dead babies. Wars only keep politians and arms dealer rich... I guess if america thinks we'll spend it on 40oz gold chians and big cars then go ahead fight iraq.

I have a lot to say here, and it's quite late (or early depending on how you see it) so bare with me...

My first problem with reperations is of course the obvious and what has already been said- slavery had been abolished nearly a century and a half ago. They are asking for reperations from people who have absolutley nothing to do with slavery, to pay others who have never been slaves themselves.

Second- If should decendents of slaves are handed reperations, then why shouldn't Native Americans get simular reperations? I mean we only killed a good many of them, threw them off the land we built this country on. And while we are at it, why don't we give reperations too the Irish that were kept from getting a decent job, the ancestors or even those that were black listed during the cold war, and even down to the arab population that has been discriminated in these most recent times. Pretty soon we'll be paying everybody for just about every discrimination. My point is, everyone and everyones ancestor has been a victom- why and how could we choose to repent victoms of one group but not the other(s).

Third- We can not achieve racial equality if one racial group asks for special treatment, special privleges or programs over the others. The only way for racial equality is for society to be blind to race, but how could we with programs such as affirmitive action, and proposals such as this.

If it is equality we strive for, then we must accept to be treated as equals- not as a lower or higher class, not as a villan or victom - there should be no labels, no special treatment.

So Nth man...can I assume that the fact that I am white makes me guilty? Thats the impression that I'm getting and if it's true that you feel that way, then you are no better than those fools in the KKK or the idiots who started the slave trade in the first place.

Whats really cool is what you would see if you looked back along the generational lines of my family. There's an American Indian back there, along with a WWI vet, a Revolutionary War soldier, even a UNION soldier. So lets add this up...one of my ancestors got screwed same as you, one fought to help birth this country, one fought to free YOUR ancestors, and one fought to defend the freedoms of this and several other countries. Now would you care to enlighten me as to how I OWE YOU forty acres and a mule and just exactly what it is I'm guilty of?

In reading these comments I cant help but wonder what was that (those) payments made to the jewish people for the crimes committed against them by Hitler. Then I wonder how people can just chalk up affirmative action, which was meant to "level the playing field", to right the wrong of slavery. This country still enjoys the fruits of the labor and lives given by black people. This is not to say that black people should not own up to their part, however, America does not now nor has it ever respected black people. They have treated and continue to treat them with contempt and "tolerate" them because its the "right" thing to do.

I wonder what circumstances the decendents of slaves would find themselves in IF thier ancestors weren't forced to come here. Malcomb X said they the white settlers landed on plymouth rock.....but that same rock LANDED on the blacks. There is truth in that statment.
But where would they be if they were left in Africa? I'll tell you..they would be in the same postion that 60% of all Africans are...HUNGRY. I believe in ONE race..the HUMAN race. So I'm not a bigot..I just disagree. I have cherokee(american indian) blood in me. What they did to my poeple is far worse that anything done to blacks.My poeple were so subjected to genocide that there isn't enough of us LEFT to make political waves. I say to the black leaders that are greedily crying reparations to quit thier WHINING .
It makes me SICK!

:chuck:

I'm sorry for the things that our ancestors did generations ago but you have to be kidding me about reperation. There is no conspiracy to hold African Americans down. We have equal opportunity laws and more then enough scholarships if someone wanted to go to school and make better their life. It's too bad that there are a few bad apples out there (white and black) that have to keep this issue alive.

On a more positive note, I went into the military after highschool and some of my best friends in the service are African Amercian. They are some of the most hard working guys and best friends that i have ever had.

Greetings All:

Urgh, topics like this really annoy me. Let me start by saying I am FAR from prejudice. As a gay man, I know what it's like being in the minority of a society that as a whole, doesn't exactly look highly on you. However..........

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Originally posted here by Nth Man
I pay my taxes to a government that enslaved my ancestors.

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Yes, and I pay my taxes to a government that still allows states to arrest and imprison gays just for being in the same bed in their homes with one another, that would deny me the right to see my partner in the hospital even if he was on his death bed, and that doesn't afford me the same legal and financial protections that a "straight" couple would get. But, despite all, I pay my taxes and I'm proud to do it. Maybe you should take some pride in your country too?

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Originally posted here by Nth Man
Look deep and hard at what's going on around you. You’re guilty by association and taxes. You say hard work and an education is all one needs to make it in this society, my ancestors worked hard in the cotton and sugarcane fields, denied and education denied to speak their native language and practice their culture, so the whites could sit on their asses sipping mint julep. America has billions to fight iraq but, when is she going to give me my forty acres and a mule?

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America will give you your damn 40 acres and a mule when you go out and earn it, just like the rest of us have to do!

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Originally posted here by Nth Man
oh she'd rather invest it by sending troops to iraq? the only return on that kind of investment is bodybags, bastards and dead babies.

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Uhm, returns on that type of investment also include your right to live in this country without having to fear additional radical Muslim fundamentalist groups obtaining nuclear capabilities and blowing the **** out of you and everyone within a several mile radius of you. Your precious 40 acres wouldn't be worth much if it was in the middle of a radioactive fall-out zone.

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Originally posted here by TIMBSNTRUKS
America does not now nor has it ever respected black people. They have treated and continue to treat them with contempt and &quot;tolerate&quot; them because its the &quot;right&quot; thing to do.

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You really should get over this "I'm a victim" thing, it's not very becoming. With your attitude, I'm not surprised that you've been treated your entire life with "contempt and tolerance". However, just because you've been treated that way, doesn't mean that America as a whole treats all people of your race similarly. Perhaps you'd find that if you adjusted your attitude, those around you might gain a bit more respect for you.


It's very easy to sit back and blame others for the troubles in our lives.
What's difficult, is putting forth the effort necessary to work our way out of them. However, it's also by far most rewarding......

It's not about the money. Maybe it is for al sharpton and rev Jackson, but for most African-American's like myself it has nothing to do with money. It's really about respect. If the government was to offer a formal apology for the slave trade hundreds of years ago, that would be good enough for me. If I was giving a check today for reparations, I would probably tear it up. People already think African-Americans get preferable treatment, the last thing I need is to be getting checks from the government on this issue.

And another thing, to those who think that everything is equal now, you really need to wake up. I can tell you from experience, that I have to work twice as hard as a white man to get the same things. And it's not just African-Americans, it's women, hispanics and other minorities. My point is that, some people think that when African-Americans complain about unfair treatment, they are just being lazy. While that might be true with some people, don't hold all of us to that standard. A lot of us are being unfairly treated.

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Originally posted here by g0t r00t
And another thing, to those who think that everything is equal now, you really need to wake up. I can tell you from experience, that I have to work twice as hard as a white man to get the same things.

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Even if that were true, (and I honestly do not believe it to be true, as a whole, in our country) what's your point?

I had to work harder to start up my business than someone that had rich parents would have. If my parents had been rich, they could have given me a few million to start things up, and my life would have been a lot easier.

Intelligent people don't have to work as hard in school as dumb people do.

Some people don't have to watch their weight at all, while others have to work constantly to keep off the pounds.

And yes, blacks and other racial minorites face discrimination by SOME in our society.

No one has ever said that life's fair. We all don't start out on the same foot when we enter this world. But, we live in a country that doesn't limit where any of us can end up. That, at it's very basic level, is what makes this country so amazing.....

It's one thing to have to work harder because you're not as rich as someone, but it's a totally different thing to have to work harder because of the color of your skin, gender or sexual orientation. You're right that life isn't fair but that can't be an excuse for discrimination.

Oh yeah, one more thing. Before people start thinking that I hate all white people....I really believe that the majority of society is sickened by discrimination. I think that the KKK and other small minded people misrepresent the majority of people in the US.

Nth I would like to clarify something. You responded that your grandparents owned acreage and lost it to the government as a reply to mine for why? The difference between our posts (notice I do not say between us) is that my description of my Grandparents was merely to praise them. They lost their farm in the depression and moved to town to work in the shoe factories. I don't blame the shoe factories for exploiting them. My grandparents didn't either. The company got rich, my grandparents struggled on. They are better people than I even aspire to be.

Your remembrance seems to be fully tainted with venom and anger. I am sorry for that. I hope that is your post and your point and not your memory of your grand parents.

Now I do believe that African Americans have it harder than whites still. I believe that there still needs to be a continuing shift in attitude to where skin color does not make a difference in the value of a man. That is one reason I did not, in my post, compare African Americans to whites today but rather to other immigrants. Yes I believe that education, which is no longer denied, is important to any race. You cannot claim the problems you grand parents did. I never claimed them from mine, I felt I demonstrated how they pushed so their children would benefit from their work and difficulties rather than be sucked down into the same hard life they led. They taught education from an early age and they sacrificed to make sure their children gained it. It wasn't easy, my father worked hard, my mother worked hard, we lived a poor life for many years so he could complete his education. I was very young so please understand I do not remember the harder times and my parents have rarely dwelt upon them except to discuss how it brought them closer.

There is racism in America but putting a tax on people for things done in the past is wrong. Instead we need to keep educating people about the stupidity of racism, any racism. That includes unconditional hatred or anger towards whites as well. Under the skin we are all the same color, in the eyes of God we are all the same. Yes, we have not learned to live our lives by this truth but lets work to bring unity rather than pass laws which make a point but still work to divide.

If I might draw a parallel. When I argue with my wife it will go on and on and on as long as we both refuse to let our advantage or argument go. When one side or the other takes the high ground and decides to bring peace rather than their viewpoint then the argument ends. If both decide to do this it ends by our growing closer. The sooner we end these types of arguments and come together as one people the sooner we can achieve the equality that African Americans deserve and have certainly earned.

SodaMoco I was just pointing out that my grandparents despite thier miseducation worked hard to get where they are now even with those set backs...I think they achieved alot more then myself and I'm still trying to finish college :)

I think alot of African American are more upset with the fact like Got Root said we were never given a formal apology. we were not asked weather or not we wanted to become a citizen but made second class citizen by the emacipation proclomation under a constitution that was supposed to protect its citizens from injustices. I not angry and I'll try and look at this debate from both sides... that is all I ask of anyone reading this thread.

I am sickened not only by the article but some of the views held by people in this forum. African Americans and other races built this country's economy while shackled by the european settlers who beleived in a government that was based on hypocricy. They waited over 400 years for equal rights. Even today most of you have no clue what really goes on in the real world. You talk as if this was eons ago, but it wasn't. You act as if these injustices are gone, but the consequences of those actions are clearly apparant today. Now you're mad because the family fortune your ancestors got from trading and sellin people like pokemon cards is gonna get skimmed a bit. Get a concience.
I am not asking for reparations from white people, but from the government of the United States. It alone is responsible for what happened then. I gotta go but I'll be back to finish

ReddFoxx321, obvisously you have forgotten that the government raises funds for such programs, such as reperations, through taxes on all citizens. Either that or they had better have one bigass bake sale.

And I think many people don't understand the full issue. Yes, an apology is owed, and I'll be the first to make it. I have no idea if my family owned slaves, but I don't think so. And the American Government should apologize. I mean, how hard is it?

Second, the 40 acres and a mule. Freed blacks were promised it, as granted as a field order by General Sherman. Andrew Johnson revoked it, and seized the land back. Blacks merely want reparations for that, and it's understandable. We give back land to the Native Americans, the Jewish are receiving money from the Germans and Swiss. Just fair compensation for what was given, and then seized back.

And the government would not be cutting every African American slave descendant a check. Instead, a commitee (probably the one heading up the reparations legislations) will hold the money in a trust, and claims will be made toward it. The idea has merit. And as long as it's carried out well, it should work fine.

http://usaweekend.com/02_issues/0208...parations.html

Good post DarkGuardian. You're right, I don't think many people fully understand the arguement. I don't think that every person who's family owned slaves should apologize. I do however believe the Government should though, because it was the government that allowed it. As far as the 40 acres are concerned, I don't care too much about that. I mean, when you really think about it, all that land really belongs to the Native Americans, so I don't feel comfortable claiming that the US gov. owes me 40 acres.

Against my better judgment...I'm going to post to this thread.
Are minorites equal in today's society? No, maybe not. Is that my fault? No it isn't. Did my ancestors own slaves? I don't know. Do I own slaves? No. Therefore I have nothing to apologize for. You say you want an apology from the government? Well guess what! The people that run the show now are NOT the same people that condoned slavery. The thing is, there is noone alive today that took part in slavery, so who do you want an apology from? Why should they apologize to you anyway? Are you a slave? No, you're not. Get over it.
Is there racism? Yes. Are minorities treated unfairly sometimes? Yes. If you want to be angry about this, then that's fine. Be angry, you have every right.
Bad things happen to good people. That's life, and it sucks. Sitting around whining about it won't help you or anyone else. Pick yourself up, and keep on marching.

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Originally posted here by g0t r00t
It's one thing to have to work harder because you're not as rich as someone, but it's a totally different thing to have to work harder because of the color of your skin, gender or sexual orientation. You're right that life isn't fair but that can't be an excuse for discrimination.

Oh yeah, one more thing. Before people start thinking that I hate all white people....I really believe that the majority of society is sickened by discrimination. I think that the KKK and other small minded people misrepresent the majority of people in the US.

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work harder cause of the color of your skin? WTF....where the **** are you living. I am a white man and goddamn proud of. What I want to know is where the **** my American Honkey College fund is? Can you answer that, or are you to held down by "the man."

How about racial quota's? Why is it that a black man gets hired over a white man thats better educated and more experianced, just to fill a ****ed up RACIST quota.

Why is it every time I hear a rap song, all I hear is "kill whitey" and to quote 2 Pac: "there's a ghetto up in heaven and it's ours BLACK POWER", and that god damn mother ****ing Louis Farikhan.....Yet if I were to even mutter the words "White Pride" or "white Power" or even fly the confederate flag (which I wouldnt cause that ignorant and redneck and I am not a racist) I would be labled a racist.

Seems to me that the only racists today are the ones who are not being oppressed, but rather coddled for **** that took place over 100 years ago.....SO A NICE BIG **** YOU to you *******!

P.S. I am half native american Indian.....Do I get to ****ing bitch about columbus and his "Band of white opressors" and how they STOLE my ancestors land, beat and raped there women, even after the indians showed them how to ****ing survive. UGH Your a pathetic gimp, and people like you just perpetuate the problem.

40 acres is a metaphor for whats owed. quad, alot of african americans have native american ancestors, where do you think runaway slave went? they live among the Indains because it was a safe refuge. they all didn't run up north, southern florida was a very hostile environment (swamps, aligators, deseases, insects)where most white men would not go. if your are really half native then you can go to school. one big misconception of affirmative action is it allows people of color with less skills a priority over someone more qualified. thats was not the intended purpose of AA. equality skilled people of color where being discriminated against AA action is supposed to allow someone of the same qualification the same chance as the majority i.e(for every skilled white, one equally skilled black will be hired).not the other way around. I worked for a circuit board company, I applied for a position in the IT dept, as a PE Tech when I submitted my resume' the man who head up the department came downstairs to the shop floor interduced himself shoke my hand and went back upstairs, that was my interview. He hired someone who didn't have a natural tan, and less qualified... what made me mad was the fact that he didn't care to take the time and see if I was qualified for the position or not. he saw my skin color first.
African Americans deal with this everyday.

Nth Man..take this with how it was intended and not as a snarky reply.

But..if you filled out your application as you respond to threads here, a lot of grammar and spelling errors, I wouldn't have even met you. Your resume would have been discarded and believe me, that has nothing to do with discrimination. It's all about perception of intelligence and ability to do the job.

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Originally posted here by Nth Man
[B] one big misconception of affirmative action is it allows people of color with less skills a priority over someone more qualified. thats was not the intended purpose of AA. equality skilled people of color where being discriminated against AA action is supposed to allow someone of the same qualification the same chance as the majority i.e(for every skilled white, one equally skilled black will black will be hired).

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One white to one equally skilled black does not seem to reflect the ratio of whites to blacks in this countries population. Also white vrs black excludes other minority groups.

Forget all that though, why should it be a question of race. That is my biggest problem with AA, and even this. We strive to be equal, to have a color blind society, but yet every where you turn it becomes a racial issue. Why should a college or an employer have to base a decision on race at all?

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Forget all that though, why should it be a question of race. That is my biggest problem with AA, and even this. We strive to be equal, to have a color blind society, but yet every where you turn it becomes a racial issue. Why should a college or an employer have to base a decision on race at all?

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I have to agree... We pay taxes to a government that says "No discrimination of sex, race, creed, religion, etc..." The problem is how MUCH they are "not" discriminating in those regards. Anyone watch CSPAN much? There's a lot of African-American programs along with other minority programs being aired, but ever since CSPAN'S inception I have yet to see any white male programs. What's up with that? We have a black history month, but I have been threatened with a school suspention for even suggesting a white history month. Go Figure!

.gov should do away with ALL the programs and simply be colorblind. That way, they can hold true to their claim of NOT discriminating. If someone is even LOOKING at skin color, there's GOING to be discrimination. It seems to me that .gov is fanning the coals to a fire that should have died out a LONG time ago... But hey... As it was hinted around at earlier... The propeganda makes for votes (after all, it WAS the propeganda that won the Civil War for the North if we care to put the A-Beka, wannabe "history" books down and pick up something intelligent to read).

Don't get me wrong... I'm not for slavery by any means. That last comment was made mostly because I believe that Abraham Lincoln was probably the worse president this country has had because of the imbalance he created between Federal and State. IMHO, he deserved what he got.

Cheers to all (regardles of your skin color, unless it's green.... I really don't like green)! :)

Rev

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Originally posted here by Nth Man

I think alot of African American are more upset with the fact like Got Root said we were never given a formal apology. we were not asked weather or not we wanted to become a citizen but made second class citizen by the emacipation proclomation under a constitution that was supposed to protect its citizens from injustices. I not angry and I'll try and look at this debate from both sides... that is all I ask of anyone reading this thread.

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A formal apology? From who? I am a decendent of American Indians. Why should I aplogise to ANYONE!!!! You need to check yourself. You're very statement is predudical IMHO. .

Your poeple decided to submit to slavery..mine did not. Oh they TRIED to make Indians slaves but we would rather DIE than submit to it. THe only reward WE recieved was RACIAL GENOCIDE!..You say you're not angry? Well you should be. The anger should be channeled in a constructive manner however. Excel and work hard use the anger as an energy source.

I love black poeple. I respect thier accomplishments. I will NOT however under any cicumstances aplogise for slavery. The very fact that you're in AMERICA now and not starving in Africa should be enough of a "reparation" I could take an absurd position also and justify it with more logic than you did. After all ..this country's land was at one time was all "owned" (yes even your grandfather's land) by Indians. We were slaughtered and murdered and the land was taking from us. We were lied too and lead away to starve on some useless "reservation". If there was ENOUGH of us left couldn't we rise up and say"WE want reparations"? You say "All I ask is anyone reading this to look at both sides " . Your perspective seems a bit one sided to me. I will say again what I said in my antipoints message"QUIT WHINING" No one here owes you a damn thing or me either for that matter. I however am not asking for a "formal apology"

N my words may seem harsh but thats how I see it.

This is my last post to this discussion. It's obvious to me that some, just some, people in this discussion are demonstrating the racial problems I was describing. Since I posted here, I've been called an '*******' and told to "get a *****ing job". So, because I believe that I'm at a disadvantage as an African American, I must not have a job? Give me a break. This is exactly what Nth Man and I were talking about. And some of you all need to do a better job of reading an entire post instead of selective parts. I never said every white person in America should apologize to African-Americans. I said that the US government as a whole should apologive. As far as AA is concerned, I don't believe in it. It was a good idea, but it doesn't work. There are 2 ways that AA hurts African-Americans. The first is that, like Nth Man said, some employeers don't even look at an applicants qualifications. So not only are qualified white men and women being overlooked but so are qualified African-Americans. The second way it hurts is when an African American gets a job at a company that uses AA, the majority of the time it is assumed that they got the job because of AA and not on their own merits. This futher fuels the claim that African-Americans are lazy.

That's it...no more from me on this topic. If you want to neg me for expressing my views, then fine.

Only in America ladies and gentleman, only in America..............

I normally don't partake in these debates as I'm not American, but this time only...

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Originally posted here by JP
[B]
But, despite all, I pay my taxes and I'm proud to do it. Maybe you should take some pride in your country too?[B]

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IMO your country has got a huge problem when certain parts of the population don't take any pride in they're own country. Maybe they don't even feel like they're a part of the American society? I saw a program once where a reporter was interviewing people in the poor black parts of New York (just after september 11th btw). Many of these said things like, "what has America done for me except raping my grandmother & put me in this crummy apartment. I owe America nothing".

When a society has become one that it's members don't feel like they're a part of, ugly things will happen sooner or later. How about the riots in L.A. some years ago?

And I don't think there's no use saying "take pride in your country", that's not gonna work. When your father & grandfather worked in a burger-joint and lived in the crummy neighbourhoods, there's no chance you're gonna go to Harvard. That's like one in a million. The rests gonna be stuck right where they're father & grandfather were. And the numbers of people who don't fit into society is growing and growing.

My point is that the American goverment has to actively do something about this problem, not just sit back and wait for better times because they're not coming. Building more jails is not gonna help either. Somehow these people has to be pulled back into society, and that's gonna cost you your tax money. And perhaps a few of your principles about free enterprise. What I'm suggesting is things like recognizing slavery as a crime done to the black americans by the Goverment. Paying for work-training, free kindergarten for people that can't afford it, creating jobs for everyone & see to it that they pay off. Nobody's gonna work for nothing. Stuff like that.

So while you are hunting Al-Quiada in Iraq and Afghanistan, it's really boiling in you're own back-yard. I give you 10-15 years, if nothing has changed it's you're own people flying planes into buildings. I actually believe that. Well, you're not the only country having these problems. I been to England and I've seen the same thing. In my own country these problems are developing, but because of Norways small size it's easier to control.

So, whats this post doing in this thread anyway? What I see in this thread is that so many people don't want to recognize that stuff our forfathers did is actually OUR problem, and we're gonna have to deal with it. And problems don't dissappear just because we want them to. They have to be dealt with.

Sorry about this, I promise I won't post in cosmos for while. :)

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Originally posted here by JP


You really should get over this "I'm a victim" thing, it's not very becoming. With your attitude, I'm not surprised that you've been treated your entire life with "contempt and tolerance". However, just because you've been treated that way, doesn't mean that America as a whole treats all people of your race similarly. Perhaps you'd find that if you adjusted your attitude, those around you might gain a bit more respect for you.

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LETS NOT GET IT TWISTED. I HAVE NEVER NOR WILL I EVER BE A "VICTIM" OR BLAME ANYONE FOR MY ILLS. I AM THE SOLE CONTROLLER OF MY DESTINY AND IF I DONT HAVE "IT" IT'S BECAUSE I DIDNT GET "IT". ITS SO EASY FOR PEOPLE TO TRY AND SWEEP WHAT IT WAS UNDER THE RUG WITH A "OOPS MY BAD" AND THINK IT WILL GO AWAY. THE EFFECTS OF 400 YEARS OF SLAVERY ARE STILL FELT TODAY. I AGREE WITH ANTIHAXOR THAT WHAT WAS DONE TO THE NATIVE AMERICANS WAS JUST AS BAD, AND AMERICA TRIED TO AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE IT AND MAKE IT RIGHT (EVEN IF JUST SYMBOLICALLY). AFRICAN AMERICANS STILL CANT EVEN GET A FORMAL APOLOGY FROM AMERICA. 40 ACRES AND A MULE WASNT SOMETHING WE JUST DREAMED UP. IT WAS A COMMITTMENT ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT TO TRY AND RIGHT A WRONG AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, BUT THEY WENT BACK ON THEIR WORD.

MY ATTITUDE IS JUST FINE BECAUSE I KNOW THE HISTORY AND I SEE THE FRUITS OF THAT LABOR, AND I WILL NEVER FORGET. EVERYBODY IS QUICK TO SAY SLAVERY WAS 100 YEARS AGO WHEN 40 YEARS AGO AFRICAN AMERICANS WERE STILL FIGHTING TO VOTE, OR SIT ANYWHERE ON A BUS, TO GET ADEQUATE HOUSING. ANYTIME PEOPLE HEAR AFRICAN AMERICANS SPEAKING UP ON IT THEY WANT US TO "GET OVER" IT. ITS EASY TO SAY WHEN YOU STILL BENEFIT FROM THE "SYSTEM", AND A "SYSTEM" DOES EXIST, WHETHER YOU CHOOSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT OR NOT. IF IT DOES NOT OPPRESS YOU OR LIMIT YOU OR MAKE THINGS THAT MUCH HARDER FOR YOU, YOU THINK A PERSON WANTS PITY. I WOULD ASK YOU...DO YOU THINK THAT THE SAME MINDS THAT DREAMT UP "JIM CROW LAWS" PASSED ANY OF THOSE THOUGHTS AND TEACHINGS TO THEIR CHILDREN? SURELY THEIR IDEAS/IDEALS HAVE SOME BEARING ON HOME THE GAY COMMUNITY IS VIEWED AND TREATED AS WELL.

THE WHOLE ISSUE ISN'T SO MUCH THE MONEY, PER SE, BUT MORE SO THE MESSAGE THAT THE GOVERNMENT SENDS BY NOT DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT WHEN IT CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE.