can they???
if they can't crack it can they force...
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can they???
if they can't crack it can they force...
They'll crack it.
Think about it, They have the people from MIT, and all the other top universities working for them if they really need something. There is no stopping them.
And yes, they can force you to give it up or be arrested.. its through a subpeona (sp?)..
i don't believe they can crack everything ... why would they need subpeona's then??
what if i say i don't remmember it...?
Under Patriot Act, they can site that you're a threat to national security or something along that line and you'll be arrested.. and they need a subpeona to get any information from you....
They can't crack everything. Even with alot of resources it's on chance, but eventually if enough time goes by they will crack it. I am talking about some hard core encryption not a password protected zip. That is also why they feel the need to introduce bills that establish key authorities. What they do is more like what hackers do: social engineer and attempt to get the key phrase. Chances are, if you are a target they will spy the phrase via hidden camera or keylog. It just depends, I have been involved in several prosecution cases...
You will be probed!Quote:
Originally posted here by :-\
And yes, they can force you to give it up or be arrested.. its through a subpeona (sp?)..
Steve
See attached: :D
Cheers:
if the Gov. creates "key vaults" ... how are they planning to force ppl to give them keys... are they planning on cutting off the internet access to all the non - US crypto software ... like, road blocks on the Intenet... i'm really feel they are trying to fight something they can't win...
what happens if i say that i forgot the key because it's too long ... or somthing like that... can they do anything or do they have to release me... i mean if they have to evidence they can't hold me ... we don't live in Beirut, do we?
The government can really do whatever they want. If you are encoding something that they want, need, or don't want you to have, they have a billion + dollars to get it from you. And thanks to 9/11, they can claim your resistance to terrorist activites and well, you will give it up.
Is this just a hypothetical situation?
I have family in the government related to the computer area. (They are probably seeing this right now) anyway, I know for a fact that the government is persistent and they have enough resources at their finger tips (i.e. billions of dollars) to do what they please. Has anyone seen anti-trust I could see something like that going on. However, I believe that the government is not out to get us, they just don't know how to go about pinpointing terrorism so they are trying something that will get everything. What they don't know is that if a terrorist is trying to hide something, it is possible. I am sadly reminded of 9/11 and I feel that we do need to pull together to stop this craziness but this may not be the answer. So, we need to figure out a good answer. I am not sure yet, but one I get enough time to do a nice long post with a good idea I will be back!!!
I would almost say its a safe bet that the NSA has enough computing power in their basement to break any commercial encryption, and probably quite a few non-commercial governement crypto schemes. Or better yet, think of a system like the Earth Simulator, and then imagine it put to the task of cracking. I doubt most methods of encryption could hold out long against something like that.
If the NSA want's your PGP Phara phrase, the'll get it. Ol' boy sheriffs department would have a harder time unless the LEAF key really does exist.
Syini666 - dunno if you have heard about them yet but quantum computers will put something like the Earth Simulator to shame.
I was reading an article about the 7-qubit one they have working right now and according to theory (they didn't say if they had actually tested it or not) they will be able to break triple DES in a matter of minutes with it.
Those computers work in a completely different fashion than what we have now.
***EDIT***
I'm trying to find the article where they were talking about the two working quantum computers that are out there. One is a 3-qubit that I think I remember them saying IBM had and the other was a 7-qubit that was attributed to MIT or Berkeley but I can't rightfully remember as it's been a while since I read the article.
***EDIT PRT 2***
I found a quick link on IBM about their quantum computer, it's not the same article I read a while back, but it does talk about their working 7-qubit quantum computer. They don't really talk about it's calcution capability other than to say:
Quote:
This result reinforces the growing realization that quantum computers may someday be able to solve problems that are so complex that even the most powerful supercomputers working for millions of years can't calculate the answers," said Nabil Amer, manager and strategist of IBM Research's physics of information group.
Depends which country, and what you mean.Quote:
If you mean "Can they legally force you to reveal your key and then legally use any data they decrypt against you in court", then the answer is yes in the UK under the RIP act 2000.
There has not been a case where they've used this power yet, however to my knowledge.
If you mean "Can they illegally force you by some illegal (under Geneva convention) duress?", then then answer is "Yes" in any country, however any evidence they did gather in this way would probably be inadmissable in court if you live in a country with a vaguely sane legal system (or even the UK).
Slarty
RSA 2048 bit key. If they break it, they deserve to have your information.Quote:
They'll crack it.
While I agree the concept of cracking that key to be quite impressive, Nobody deserves to snoop onto my private communications, and second, I'm sure they have systems that can break it, as I stated earlier. Think about it like this, they get the new technology, we get their old stuff when they are done with it. So if thats new to us, its old hat to them and has already become outdated to the government.Quote:
Originally posted here by PM8228
RSA 2048 bit key. If they break it, they deserve to have your information.
Once you pass a certain threshold (2048 bits may be over that threshold), it becomes easier to brute force the key's password than it is to break the encryption itself. If you're going to go hog wild and use 2048 bits, make sure you choose a password that's worthy of that level of encryption.
so what you are saying is that if i record anything digitally the gov. has it...
look at my previous post xyz
i don't think that computing power is all that matters...
Let's be realistic?
1. They can find out what they want, either by clever IT methods or simply extracting the information from YOU?
2. Are YOU that important that if you are not around tomorrow, anyone will really care. Well, anyone who matters to your administration that is.
3. Democracy is relative............not absolute. A lot of "democracies" break even their own laws in certain circumstances?
4. Sometime between when you stop screaming and you die you will tell them all that they want to know. Your body will not be found.
5. The S.D.E.C.E. (French Government Secret Service) blew up the Rainbow Warrior and killed a guy. This was Greenpeace's boat that was protesting against French chauvinistic nuclear weapons tests?
A couple of French secret service guys got prison sentences..........and you still eat their crappy cheese and drink their pissy wine? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :rolleyes: France is still in the EU, the S.D.E.C.E still exists? So don't give me the crap "that could never happen here"......France gave the US the Statue of Liberty (maybe the timing mechanism failed :D )
6. If you come to "THEIR" attention you are in trouble.......if you are using 4048 bit encryption in the wrong place you will come to their attention.
Just my £0.02 worth
Cheers
What we used to say in the military about ourselves applies equally well here:-
The Military can't _make_ you do anything, but they can make you wish you had....... :eek:
Perfectly placed Tiger Shark.
If it can't be cracked they will find a way to get you to tell them.
Now let's think about this a different way. Let's take this from a interesting point.
If you are just a regular average everyday Joe, they are not going to put all those resources into you. It would be just ludacris to do so.
Now let's take this from another Point of view. If the Gvt. being any gvt. wants something Bad enough, we all know that they will get it. Some way or another.
If it is nothing more then just Shoting you in the Kneecaps until you tell the Key. Not like it hasn't been done before.
:o
Were there is a gun there is a way.
Sorry to break the intensity here but WhizKid2300, I could just sit here and watch your avatar for hours. That is just great.
Yes they could force you to give it to them.. Look at what happened to the creator of PGP Phil Zimmerman if I am correct.The us govt. went and took him to court. Since they had a hard time cracking his encryption, I still think that they havent been able to crack it yet. They begean to accuse him that his encryption is a threat to world peace.Incidentally the law invoked against Phil (International Traffic in Arms Control Regulations, ITAR) classifies Automatic Teller Machines as "Auxilliary Military Equipment". Yes those machines you use
to get money from your account at night are considered lethal.
The reason was because his software somehow had ended up somewhere else in which he had nothing to do with it. So yes in the end the government will do anything to get what they want.
I have no idea what the various intelligence agencies throughout Europe and the U.S. have or don't have, but I would be willing to bet that whatever it is it is very hardcore and would probably surprise most of us with it's abilities and raw computing power.
[the true answer to the question is actually very [blur]"iffy"[/blur] , and is really based on how much you actually know about ur rights as a citizen vs. what u've heard on the news and form [gloworange]word of mouth[/gloworange] . I see a lot about the [shadow]"Patriot Act"[/shadow] & peoples misguided preceptions fuled by the media. The [shadow]"Patriot Act"[/shadow] dose not give the gov' as much power as they'd have u believe, sure they can say "ur a terriost and hold your indefinably, but that really applies to those whom r not American Citizens…& more so for those who r not citizens and hail from the Middle East. Think about it, the people running the gov’ aren’t that stupid, the amount of public and media backlash that they’d receive for holding an American youth “hostage” because of something as such would be egregious. And there is one thing u must all ways remember…people in the gov’ r elected and must seam to be hard on terrorist, but not oppressive to American Citizens. Due to this very fact when it come to dealing with natural American Citizens they cannot opperate on the "the end justifies the means" principle.
then there is the subpoena, it's pretty much useless...i mean if you know that they are going to ask you for it get rid of it b4 they do so, not after, then you can be charged with distroying evidence which will open up another can of worms.
Well, I hope what I've learned in school, GO KNIGHTS, will actually answer your question correctly and subdue some of this misguided speculation.]
absolutely they can!!!!!! they can blsck mail you and force you to do that or pay you!!1 so that they can get what they want
As Lord Viczerez said, all of this does depend on where you live.
The UK has very similar powers to the US in this respect, and is currently detaining 10 foreign nationals without trial (some for more than 2 years) under its anti terrorism act.
Identical to the situation in the US regarding Guatemalo Bay, really.
When it comes to revealling keys, the UK does have the power under the RIP act to force anyone to surrender their key. It is also a criminal offence to inform anybody else that you have been forced to do this, so who knows if this law has been used ???
In the UK, all of this was passed before 9 11, so they don't have that as an excuse !!
Don't know the details of your "Patriot Act", but in the UK the authorities do not need a court order (that is a subpoena in US terms) to invoke these powers. So they can, and do, turn up and confiscate computer equipment that might have been used in some illegal activity.
yes they can.
They can do anything using National Security as a reason, just as the Narcs can check everyones butt for drugs.
Another thing, they dont force you, they just take it.They have their ways of getting it.
Dr_Evil
Oh NO! Somebody call Mulder and Scully, we've got a consipiracy! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Actually under the Patriot Act a government agency does have to obtain a subpoena/warrant, but they get it through a secret court that doesnt have to reveal its records, and when exercising the document they arent even require to show it to you, or to tell you that they have been in your house to search it.
2pumpChump > if you want an interesting conspiracy, check out the connections the Bush family has with the bin Ladens and Saudi Royal Family through the Carlye Group :P Thats some questionable **** there.
[that’s interesting [referring to what DARKES had to say], I had no idea that's the way things worked over in the U.K...but actually I shouldn't be surprised. What I should be surprised about is the fact that the U.S. didn't so it sooner in actuality.
Oh on the issue on "going through a secret court", lets be realistic...this is not a movie...there are no secret courts and all of that other movie garbage. The most secret court we have is a military tribunal and that's it. the very existence of a "secret court" that the gov would receive a subpoena would undermine the very fabric of what this countries legal system was built upon and rests upon. However, I will concur with the Bush/Saudi reference. Heck, Fl. Gov. Bush was involved with a social security scam head deep which couple of years ago that cost every citizen just over a $1,000, but few people knew about that because it was easily overlooked. People wouldn't really notice paying an extra grand on their taxes. Oh yea, that’s' how they got the $...they tacked it on to ur taxes to pay it back.]
They can crack it, if they cant, you will be arrested for obstruction of justice and/or threat to national security, unfortunately this is how it is, look at what happened to openBSD, very strong encryption so strong the US Gov couldnt crack it. now they are prevented from operating / selling inside the US
Today with the Forensics Technology the Government dont even to be in the same area code to get all of your Hidden and cryp files, Have you seen ENCASE ENT. Edition.... This Stuff is scary. They Can Just Run it on your ISP's Network and Hunt you Down like and a scared rabbit and then they can make bit for bit copies of all your files......makes me scared
First they will have to prove it in court that this is nessesery to have a key. At least in U.S.A.
[Don't be fooled, in the U.S.A, they really don't have to prove in the court that they need it. They can subpoena your cat if that want to cause they want to test his stool drooping in an IRS fraud cause. I know that is outlandish, but that's how it is, espically if the Attorney[ies] are in good with the Judge.]
_________________________
[Lord Viczerez::Emperor of the Viczerian Empire]
::GO UCF KNIGHTS:: ^_~ ::
[[email protected]]
We've seen here and in the media at least 2 cases of government abuse of the patriot act. It's not as secret as it seems.
Some serious paranoia around here...
I doubt they will ever ask you to give them your key. They may take it, but if that happens maybe you shouldn't be ranting about the government, but stop to think what you were doing that caused them to feel the need to do that.
Forgive me, because I don't know much about the electriconics side of this, but apparently when you hit a key on the keyboard it sends out some kind of electric pulse or something and
the government has a van that can record this. Therefore, they can lift your password right when you type it. This is why the government uses shielding in their computer labs to keep this from leaking out. How do I get some of this shielding, you ask? The government made it where you have to have a permit to install it. I wonder how easy it is to obtain one of those, and if you hired a company to install it for you, I am sure the government would be curious as to who the customers are.
ImbibedParasite > i've never heard of that before, but 24" of concrete with another 18" of lead should stop any snooping of that nature, of course that is also more expensive than anyone would want to pay for some privacy.